Oh! @Happy Humble Hermit Wanted to thank you for reccomending 'The Rational Male' I am halfway into the third volume and while I think the books have some serious blindspots they also have some great insights about male nature that I havn't seen elsewhere.

Yeah, the book still focuses on female nature but it covers ideas and terms like 'relationship equity' and some possible explanations for why guys tend to do stuff like that. (Though most of the time it is just 'raised on messages to do this to serve the female imperitive')

@Justinian Its not just women. You have to perform for men too. Human beings have an innate female bias that makes them not care about men. Most men don't even care about other men unless they do something useful.

And yeah The Rational Male has a more PUA get into relationships focus over a MGTOW focus but he shifts a bit more towards the latter in his 3rd volume.

@Justinian Oh yeah... he doesn't even say avoid marriage because it is a bad deal until his 3rd book.
Before then he just says 'avoid long term relationships and commitments because they weaken your ability to have choices which give you frame/you might regress to being a beta while in a relationship'

'have to' may or may not be the right choice of words. But as a man you are invisible and judged first on how you carry yourself or your mannerisms or game. That is your performance in rollo's definition. You do it even if you do nothing.

But when applied to other men it does a similar thing. You are always being judged on your future utility to other men. This is where the male version of shit tests (ribbing/fuck you) come into play.

Also yeah, I am not arguing that point (marriage/children) at all and it is one of my biggest criticisms of his book.

Thats fine, but then that becomes your performance. At least in rollo's idea.

Yup yup.

@MoonCore ... you dont live in America do you? I already live with that. No imagniation needed.

XD Yeah SE asia is nothing like the US in terms of Fat Girls. I saw maybe 1 every 4 hours there, but in the US I saw 4 every 10 minutes at least. >< I miss it already (tho I miss the food and coffee more than just not seeing land whales everywhere)

Hey I know this is off subject but what happened to TFM's discord? It's empty/gone. Did something happen?

Sweet. Oh random thought. As far as old wisdom goes.
When a woman has sex for the first time she bleeds. Now in media you are constantly told that is a lie all the time.
So is it not a real thing or is it a real thing but this is purpose spread thottery to let thots pretend to be virgins and avoid shaming?
It's not an important question so I expect more tism than answers but it was a thought.

@hel No. "There are two tragedies in life, not getting what you want and getting it." - Me, horribly paraphrasing Mark Twain

I mostly agree. The problem with the incel is that they cannot validate internally. So they cannot be content, so they cannot be happy. Getting the girl will feel great but then once he gets past that he will be overcome with boredom and malaise and find a new lack with which to torment him and chase. Without internal validation he is in essence a hypergamous woman in terms of contentment.

*puts your waifu in the dumpster and watches the truck carry her away* Oh noes... shes leaving on a ship of trash... //Just some ribbing please noone get pissy.//

I will never undersand you guys and your need to live in the future. I just stand everywhere, or if I must, move my desk to the edge of my bed. Who needs chairs?

I mean you could fuck a mouse trap... its not gay since it doesn't have a dick but I don't think it's sex either.

On this day, we remember the valiant drones who gave thier lives so that we could watch blue explosions.

Wait, is the news organization in HK or is the story in HK?

Ok its the story. Jeeze, China is pushing hard again. Though the only reason we got this information to make it a story is because it was in HK. China has a lot of power there but not the same near absolute authority it has in China proper.

@IT G MA! The voting right is only the first step. More must go to balance the system. Much of welfare, gender hiring quotas, VAWA, family courts as an entity. You cannot fix this until you remove the female/irresponsible vote from the process.
But the goal is to get a stable growing society which means removing these primarily women beneficary systems.
Saying you only want to remove their right to vote is like saying you will only put the tip in for a second. You either don't know what you are doing or you are lying.

@41 movie night ended like an hour or two ago.

@IT G MA! Not yet, women will focus on marriage and divorce rape until we abolish the family courts.

<@396901899724521482> We tried that, they repealed it.

<@396901899724521482> A few years ago we tried to remove womens exemption from the draft (the reason all men were given the right to vote to begin with) but they cried and stopped congress from passing it.

Remember all votes (politics) are self intrest.
People won't vote themselves more responsiblity unless it gets them something else. People hate responsiblity in general and women in particular.
So in these two scenarios of removing womens right to vote or giving them more responsiblities you have the same amount of effort to do both since women will not vote for it ever for either option.
At least if you take away their right to vote you can do more afterwards to try and improve society.

So make women sign up for the draft?

Again we tried that already.

Do I have to beg TFM to hop in voice chat and do his Far Cry 3 impression again?

<@396901899724521482> They will not vote for it. Even if it is easier it is still pulling teeth for barely any gain.

And that only really affects votes for war.

When it comes to economics women still hold no responsiblity just like many people don't. This is why the net taxpayer voting model works better.

>< MGTOW is about helping men self actualize. It is not a political movement for garnering votes.

@IT G MA! It's not wrong but doing that would co-opt MGTOW away from what it does. It changes the focus of people within it and at that point it would just be the MRM... so if you want to focus on votes and politics to improve mens lives just go to the MRM it is literally there for THAT EXACT PURPOSE!

@Xychotic Wrong, the bell curves have the same distribution with men's being a mean 5 pts higher.

@Xychotic That chart you are referring to comes from the 1983 Court study, you want the 1994 Ravens study.

Give me a minute.

Can you read a study or am I giving you a youtube link?

@IT G MA! That is fine, if you want to post hey a vote is coming up for this or that feel free. But that is something YOU are doing, that is not a MGTOW as a whole thing.

I vote bye for now.

Better yet. "See You Space Cowboy.." Go full weeb.

Marriage in the form of Monogamy is a solution to the problem of how to handle mate distribution. It is not a uniquely Christian thing and is not the only option.
Polygamy works in many other cultures but has its own trade offs.
Monogamy provides the fairest distribution of mating partners in a society and gives the most men the reason work more. In a polygamous society it is an all or nothing gamble. You either win big and get many wives or you lose big and get nothing. Polygamy is more in line with human nature but harems are flawed in that 60% of men will get no partner and those men are likely to revolt or break the system through rapes or wife kidnappings (see china)

@Luciano70p Men get Virgin shamed rather than slut shamed.

@Luciano70p because they want to not shame women so women can get their dick and attention and then not feel bad about it. It is just women trying to have it all and fuck the consequences or reality.
The reason a woman is/was shamed for having too many partners is because it makes her less desirable to a man for long term mating (marriage/child rearing.)
Shaming in this context is figureativly a parent spanking a kid for stealing. It is society trying to prevent women from making themselves unmarriable, which women tend to need in order to be provided for and provide for their children.

@Xychotic Unless you are blessed with good genes and you work out a lot.... then not really. Especially for most 20 somethings. By your 30's it gets easier because you got more money most likely and then it gets easier but it is still a lot of work.

@Luciano70p what? I feel like we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about the social mechanism and why it exists and you are talking about the current state of affairs. The current state of affairs has almost no slut shaming. It is not a thing apart from something women bitch about to claim they are oppressed.

@Xychotic Where are they 20$? It takes at least 800$ to get a ticket to go there I bet.

@Xychotic They are 200$ for a decent one in the US and the ugly/fat ones still charge something like 60$ for 15 minutes.

@Luciano70p Yeah it is a double standard. Caused by laws being built and enforced to fulfill the female imperative (or at least female hedonism depending on the context)

@Flushtater Because the women still work and go to school.

@Flushtater They aren't, by nature humans build harems.

Monogomy is a cultural adaptation to try and fix the flaw in our evolved psycholgy which is built for hunter-gatherer lifestyles and not working 9-5 in a city or whatever.

It's not damaged so much as it lowers pair-bonding because they will be making comparisons with the other guy they fucked before and thinking 'is he better?' and so for every guy they fuck that guy has to be better than every guy she fucked before to make her pair bond.
Which is harder to do as she fucks more guys.

Not that a female pair bond is that strong (war brides) but it is what most guys think about when they are unicorn hunting.

Even a virgin in the wrong enviorment will divorce rape you because she wants to mate up. So the enviorment is more important than a V-card in selecting a mate.

<@396901899724521482> Pain is the catalyst of change. Without it people will just go with the flow.

The black pill has its limits and it depends on if you subscribe to cosmic nihilism or not.

If you do then even the black pill fails to matter.

If you don't then you need to start looking at the long game.

<@396901899724521482> They are the same thing. Just in a slightly different context.

<@396901899724521482> It is basically Nihilism. Or the idea that nothing can be fixed or improved therefore *inserts 'Guess I'll die' meme*

@Happy Humble Hermit Saldy I havn't heard of it. You try Megalobox though?

@Xychotic But thats what makes them HAWT! 🍆 💦

<@396901899724521482> Yes... and I do not reccomend it. The ending was abysmal. Try Shinsekai Yori if you want a similar idea not as ruined.

>_> And if the future was like the 1920's you could say the exact same thing.

but wak fu has such good tiddies.

<@396901899724521482> Still fixed it.

<@396901899724521482> *patrick raises hand* Is penis an emotion?

<@396901899724521482> seriously though. Women do not love men as men love women. Women love conditionally and by nature temporarily. It is a product of the human evoltionary psychology. Any 'connection' cannot last.

Humans are not built to mate for life or mate monogmously so if you are trying to appeal to the human brain primarily you will fail at producing a successful society because humans are built for it.

<@396901899724521482> Can't by nature. You must subvert the human psychology (which is built for hunter-gatherer harems) by making rules that do not 'feel good' because the not feel good bit works better in the new enviorment.

Humans are rare in that they can do that which does not feel good. But most cannot avoid this.. and especially not women.

Just look at the obesity rate and tell me humans will do what is against their nature because it is good for them.

Ok lets talk. They are built to love differently. The emotion you think of as love a women does not feel.

They have their own feeling which is tied to your status, wealth, genes etc... they always want the best mate. And they will love that mate. While he is the best mate. One a better mate comes along they now love the new mate.

This is hypergamy.

If you do not understand this then we need to break from MGTOW talk and talk evolution, and game theory.

@Flushtater They also love genetics.

It's just most guys will not have those genetics.

<@396901899724521482> I never said it was amoral.
But womens love is conditional. The divorce rate speaks volumes to this. Silver divorces speak volumes to this. Single motherhood rates speak volumes to this.

<@396901899724521482> Fair enough, but I am describing it how it is. And nature is Amoral. Make no mistake. If rape works for reproducing nature will favor rape.

amoral - a meaning without and moral. Nature has no morality. It is only concerned with who passes on their genes and who does not.

immoral is the negation of morality. That is specifically going against morality as apposed to amoralitys lack of morality. There is overlap but they are different.

<@396901899724521482> So you are deep in the unicorn phase.
Its ok. Weve all been there.
So you are talking about some extremely small minority that will go against their innate psychology (as all women has this trait) just because it is the 'moral' thing to do.
Women by and large will never do this. That takes work, that doesn't feel good. And why would you do something that doesnt feel good when you can instead do something that feels good?
A singluar woman may be able to do that, or even willing but the odds are stupidly small. She has to be self aware to realize these feelings, where they come from and then have the willpower to suppress them. Something we don't train women to do in societies which are gynocentric.
Next she has to ignore all the peer pressure telling her she can do better and that she should slut it up as seen in tv shows and movies that since they are feeding into her hypergamy feel good to watch. This is why women love 'sex in the city'.
And after all that you have to meet her, and you two have to fall in love.
Oh and you know she has to specifically be 18-28 years old and attractive. (Which means she will have lots of options that her hypergamy will likely tell her the best one is the best looking one with the most money to try and be in love with, which probably isint you statistically speaking.)

Otherwise you are literally asking for a women who is born san-hypergamy in which case she is a rare and depending on your definition 'defective' woman.

What you are asking for is not a woman but a self actuallized man with a vagina at this point.

@Xychotic The red pill is changing your whole outlook and expectations in life to include giving up your purpose. That is a lot of change. Change is work, change is painful. People do not take the red pill because it is easier not to. This is how humans are wired and this is why you usually need to get burned a bit before you can take the red pill because the pain of being blue pill is worse than taking the red pill.

<@396901899724521482> You kept asking for the exception so I apologize, it just looked like you were trying to find an excuse to NAWALT it up. Which is usually what men in the Unicorn phase do.

@Xychotic Also agreed, you can spit it back up because pain in memory fades with time. So the pain of being red pilled (social limitations, getting pissed at movies etc...) seems stronger than the burn that made you take it in the first place.

And sure if you are tlaking to me <@396901899724521482>

Then DM away.

But yeah, unicorn hunting is bad mmkay?
Not only because it usually means you are trying to be blue pull with red pill knowledge (purple pill)
but because the consequences of misjuding a girl are sky high.

Pretty much, but once you accept that in essence all women have those traits you can raise your success by playing to those traits.

Hence to find a shit hole, move there and marry a girl and never leave.

On the person who said fathers make better single parents.
This is partly true but do keep in mind that the statistics we have are artifically inflated as only the most dedicated of fathers actually become single fathers. So we are usually only seeing the best and not the average.
I am not disagreeing with you just pointing out a chink in the armor.

DAMN STRAIGHT!!!!

@Xychotic The best outcomes for children statistically are with both parents.
But since that is so hard to do a single father /w surrogate is more probable for a guy to do and yes I agree with it.

@Flushtater TFM has said he beleives in Mutual Benefit. So he has advocated for a 'balanced' marriage where they women is sexually exclusive to the man and cannot divorce rape him and in exchange he takes care of her after no one wants her.
Or in other words a system that balances the rights with responsiblities. The man has authority over the woman in the marriage because he is responsible for her.

Ok im back for a bit.. what did I miss?

Opitimism = expecting reality to be better than reality.
Yeah that sounds like dissapointment in the making.

@Flushtater What is your purpose?

When men self-actualize they tend to go their own way. And leave.