obviously, they come here for the debate, not to attach their egos on their perfect opinions.

@Fitzydog yeah, shut that dirty little uncivilized brawl around questions of principle down. we exist only to completely surrender our individuality to the authorities of authorities.

do you smell that? I smell apples. my apples spell K A L L I S T I

all my unpopular opinions turned out far too poular, but I'm too reasonable to adopt more unpopular opinions.

well shit, what now.

@Fitzydog at least I'm not pretending to not be a sheep

want to join the herd-herd or the non-herd herd? only when all sheep are distributed statistically even, the herd spans the entire planet.

(that's when all sheep die, btw, because they're kind of lost on their own). sure, flock, herd, you're the wordard.

read that book I quoted from earlier. the search for answers is easy, and the answer is five tons of flax, or 42. you don't need to follow discordianism, but not following it is kind of too much in line with its philosophy, too, so...

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tilt/principia/body.html

@AlanPowell I don't think this was created to promote nihilism. it never even scratches on the distinction between what one thinks about and what one acts upon. I was always under the impression that the many ideas that ideally contradict each other prompt the readers to figure it out for themselves, or do something else entirely with their lives.

where have I heard this term recently: "Nietzsche's reevaluation of good and evil". you tangle up and satiate your own conflicted belief systems with enough ideas so what comes out on the other end has fewer unreasonable mis-judgements inside of it.

nah, I have plenty to get off to.

uh oh, they're on to me

"intellectual LARPer". I like that term.

@Fitzydog what does it mean to you?

I take +2 rhetoric damage.

baaah

don't apply your new term too liberally, though, otherwise it's not going to mean anything either. in fact one might argue it doesn't mean anything already.

This comic appeals to a male fantasy.

#goverbend

No idea what prompted me to look up Chompsky, but lo and behold, from Wikipedia: "In his youth, Chomsky developed a dislike of capitalism and the pursuit of material wealth. At the same time, he developed disdain for authoritarian attempts to establish a socialist society, as represented by the Marxist–Leninist policies of the Soviet Union". I like the general direction here...

interesting I find myself right at home with these issues. the pirates were the first to be criminalized for being beyond the system, thanks to the internet.

Falkeborn's blog was an early example of someone trying to make sense of the new era's narrative hijacking neuroses...

@EndangeredProdigy congrats on the optimism news from aussieland. seems the best outcome for all beyond the fact that you can't vaccinate people against certain kinds of stupid

@Undead Mockingbird https://i.imgur.com/PzPf4uf.png

what the fuck did I just watch...

@Undead Mockingbird trying to parse what you graphed there, where on that graph do you put the line of "jobs actively destabilizing the lives of the people doing them"?

Well then. Are the same people opposing the (solidarity-motivated) minimum wage offering alternatives, in your opinion?

For some reason you can't say that capitalism is fucking people over increasingly without getting labelled a socialist. Which is beside the point, though, because, you know, it is.

So then, more solutions, less smear, please.

...or whatever prevents people from having fruitful conversations these days.

Like maybe I'm romantic and try to see the good in people, but with the example of Mrs. Cortez, becoming a public figure appears to have revealed how little clue she has - and only marginally how her ideas are in fact counterproductively terrible.

or maybe becoming a public figure means that you employ a board of advisers whose job it is to come up with that crap.

I agree.

I was against a similar proposal in my country, btw. I found it too stark on telling others how to do what they want, and it would have astronomically bumped tax evasion, too.

@Undead Mockingbird let's try to address actively life-destroying jobs.

Switzerland

I don't think youtubers or coal miners would fall in any of those categories.
I mean people who grew up in a bad place and only get in deeper shit trying to make ends meet gluing greeting cards or whatever.

@-𝕋𝕖𝕘𝕣𝕒- as a matter of fact @Undead Mockingbird started addressing a question I asked before we started discussing other things.

Also, maybe we can discuss miners whose mines were shut down... apparently IT isn't very popular in those circles.

if all you ever did was digging up some minerals and need new opportunities, you won't be educated or specialised in (m)any other topics. so you might end up failing to make ends meet.

I don't know how it can be brought into relation with market demands. I'll go and assume that maybe employing people for mind-numbingly dumb work isn't fun either, moreso if it's just for the sake of it. So why is everyone losing their shits over "Learn to code"?

The question is rather: What is a meaningful thing for an affected govt to invest in, so that people can help themselves?

@Undead Mockingbird I'm as doubtful of the minimum wage as the next guy, really. The question where you reentered my field of attention was aimed at alternatives to the minimum wage, remember?

Do we want people being unable to make ends meet?

I approve of that, mostly. If they have jobs and dig themselves into payday loans, maybe no job would actually save them keeping to try unsuccessfully.

That is a fact up to the point where markets are actually np-complete themselves, therefore not self-regulating in certain short time frames.

howso?

but that means that it's impossible to predict the prices up to a sufficient precision, and what exactly the reasons are that made them so.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1002.2284 😃

I knew I've seen it pop up somewhere 🙂

random digression: I hate the smiley being the laughing one, colon-closeparen shouldn't be equal to colon-D

so, the question on whether and how a govt should act about people ending up on the wrong side of the fence of life seems still unanswered at this point.

Likely true, yes.

If beggars can die in the street, I guess it's a responsibility everyone has (and wants) to change that, be it only that society is a multiplayer game where one can't always control the circumstances one ends up in.

I doubt you should be allowed to likely kill somebody by taking their last valuable, but that's just me.

A refugee? A citizen? A real shitbag person you wouldn't want near your house? A white male? You know the problem with intersectionality is that this is suddenly supposed to matter - in a democracy.

Then again, I'm as lost as you in this discussion, yes.

Well my point was more about "killing" someone through removing them from the little they had. Closing the mine, the asbestos factory, the sweatshop, the mental asylum. But I might make too big of a leap here, am I conflating two distinct issues here? In fact, I'm not sure I can tell why this seems so obvious to me.

We settled that earlier, didn't we.

now we're talking!

I don't know. I happily accept the responsibility the way things work where I grew up. But why? No clue, tbh.

> how should it best be enforced?
Cannot tell. Apparently western democracies seem to show quite some variation in this concern, which is what makes this topic interesting, I guess.

> be it only that society is a multiplayer game where one can't always control the circumstances one ends up in.

What would I think of you, the shitbag billionaire you'd be, if you didn't?
If you want a society that sustains billionaires, you'll probably have more than one starving mother. That's just how a society goes, I guess.

It is, that's why western societies vary on these terms so much, I guess.

...taxes?

so, to sidestep the thought experiment a bit: let's build a government that manages to sell saving the starving mother to billionaires in a way that makes them want to invest that money, too. A bit like some places in my country accept tax deals with rich people...

Or rather, some places got rather "famous" for doing so in recent decades 😃

Maybe that's why there are so many insurance companies around here. I must say, though, I really like living in a place where people aren't pushed too far beyond what they can bear. You're not guaranteed to win, but if you lose, there are enough resources so you can get your act together.

Which is, as far as I understand it, not even entirely untrue for the US, so maybe my views aren't free of some cliche, either.

That is true, but I think what I can take away from this discussion is a better understanding of what it exactly is that I don't know in this regard.

> Shouldn't all my excess wealth be taken by that logic and distributed among all starving people?

Technically, I guess so. But yeah, I was against the 1:12 ratio initiative, as it was called here.

Isn't that just a reformulation of your earlier paradox?

I think a clear answer to that is wrong.

shouldn't. ideally. there is geometric optimization, I guess.

I like how peterson tells the story about the soviet famine.

exactly, and how they piled up in the wrong place with terrible "if you die in Canada you die in real life" consequences.

a thing that should be obvious, but when it isn't you'll scratch your head how it possibly couldn't be obvous. https://xkcd.com/180/

then again, the world is so full of complication and contradiction, I guess it's no real surprise people get lost in postmodernist views.
like really, you have to make an attempt finding the difference between real or not, and if you can't find it, nobody can do that for you. well maybe Trump can, but that's not necessarily the best for you personally.

or maybe it is, who can tell.

anyway, I have to be doing stuff.

this meme is too dank for <#398973785426100234>. Take it to <#463059337162653716> 😄

@GaracktheMad I guess that would be too meaningful for change.org

"Having one's head up one's ass far enough to write tomorrow's news" 🍕

watching this guy right now, very interesting piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wln6lNTxVpY

↑ Uncommon Knowledge: Thomas Sowell on the Vulgar Pride of Intellectuals

😄

hmm. that just makes him look like another man with a broom trying to clean up at least a bit of the intellectual garbage out there.

which just reminded me rather briskly to what the internet really is.

as in, quite the landfill.

he got.... outsnowflaked.

My personal opinion of the above three monkeys is pretty much [CENSORED].

why would you want to hunt that garbage

a cannibal is someone who is fed up with people... 😄

humans are endurance hunters.

so if you started hunting someone, you could pull it through until your target just falls over and dies

you can't spell incorrectly incorrectly, unless you spell it incorrectly

I, for one, endorse bully-mullet-in-office.