so we have plenty of failed society's which you yourself would consider superior to our society today, which has so far not failed

meh i walked into that and saw it coming a mile away

well but this is kind of a problem for you even if you do see it coming

do i consider any dead society to have failed though?

is a dead man a failure if he followed NML, had kids, etc

this is an interesting point, just because a society no longer exists, does not mean that it failed. We wouldn't apply the same standard to individuals. But there's a big problem with this position.

life cannot be preserved forever, with a man or with society

Because you seem to measure failure in terms of NML, and no dead society can preserve life, have children, etc.

if a society is dead it fails all 5 of these, because it no longer exists

perhaps all societies are doomed to fail

human nature seems to require it

but then we still have failed societies which you value over non-failed ones

entropy requires it more than anything

also, i dont view nazi germany as a successful society

well you couldn't

because it no longer satisfies any of the five conditions you laid out

they started a massively destructive war for revenge

a dead society is not by definition a failed one though

but it is

because don't you define success in terms of the 5 precepts? or do you have a completely different definition of success?

obeying NML is a success of itself, and it enables other forms of success

but all things come to an end

okay we have to get to these other forms of success then

and most dead societies had abandoned the precepts

and that precipitated their demise

i don't know that this is the case

what are the other forms of success though?

typically more material forms

high culture

the arts

Well I do love me the arts. But why should someone care about these sucesses? What's the argument for them over any other concievable form of success?

stonks are fucking bullshit

and what else is there?

for instance, if i formulated success as the largest ice cream cone constructed by a society, why is that less valid then grading based on art or high culture?

it seems like the most successful societies placed immense value on the arts, usually as a form of worship

because as we see even in our own society, Worship God means either religion or money

wait now we're getting circular, you can't say that successful societies placed value on arts when we're using arts to define successful societies

With my metrics of largest ice cream cone, none of those societies were succesful.

much of it is somewhat circular yea

because it cant go any more basic in terms of ideas

but then why is your circular reasoning superior to any other circular reasoning?