its like... directed utilitarianism

yes that's simple, this system contradicts itself

if success > failure, then the success of a plan counter to the NML is greater than it's failure

whoever can preserve life better, have children better, etc

is the superior society

this is beside the point

success is not always better than failure

so we need to demosntrate that in the case of society, a successful one is better than a failed one

since this isn't just definitionally true

can you give an example of a failed society that is better than a successful one?

forgive me for responding with a question, but do you think today's society is superior to all society's that have faild throughout history?

also, what are YOUR metrics for a society's health?

Fuck no

we violate every single one of the 5 precepts

because if not, then you can take your pick, the only society's that haven't failed are the ones which are still aive to day

so we have plenty of failed society's which you yourself would consider superior to our society today, which has so far not failed

meh i walked into that and saw it coming a mile away

well but this is kind of a problem for you even if you do see it coming

do i consider any dead society to have failed though?

is a dead man a failure if he followed NML, had kids, etc

this is an interesting point, just because a society no longer exists, does not mean that it failed. We wouldn't apply the same standard to individuals. But there's a big problem with this position.

life cannot be preserved forever, with a man or with society

Because you seem to measure failure in terms of NML, and no dead society can preserve life, have children, etc.

if a society is dead it fails all 5 of these, because it no longer exists

perhaps all societies are doomed to fail

human nature seems to require it

but then we still have failed societies which you value over non-failed ones

entropy requires it more than anything

also, i dont view nazi germany as a successful society

well you couldn't

because it no longer satisfies any of the five conditions you laid out

they started a massively destructive war for revenge

a dead society is not by definition a failed one though

but it is

because don't you define success in terms of the 5 precepts? or do you have a completely different definition of success?

obeying NML is a success of itself, and it enables other forms of success

but all things come to an end

okay we have to get to these other forms of success then

and most dead societies had abandoned the precepts

and that precipitated their demise

i don't know that this is the case