they started a massively destructive war for revenge

a dead society is not by definition a failed one though

but it is

because don't you define success in terms of the 5 precepts? or do you have a completely different definition of success?

obeying NML is a success of itself, and it enables other forms of success

but all things come to an end

okay we have to get to these other forms of success then

and most dead societies had abandoned the precepts

and that precipitated their demise

i don't know that this is the case

what are the other forms of success though?

typically more material forms

high culture

the arts

Well I do love me the arts. But why should someone care about these sucesses? What's the argument for them over any other concievable form of success?

stonks are fucking bullshit

and what else is there?

for instance, if i formulated success as the largest ice cream cone constructed by a society, why is that less valid then grading based on art or high culture?

it seems like the most successful societies placed immense value on the arts, usually as a form of worship

because as we see even in our own society, Worship God means either religion or money

wait now we're getting circular, you can't say that successful societies placed value on arts when we're using arts to define successful societies

With my metrics of largest ice cream cone, none of those societies were succesful.

much of it is somewhat circular yea

because it cant go any more basic in terms of ideas

but then why is your circular reasoning superior to any other circular reasoning?

I can create an uncountably infinite number of self-reinforcing metrics for a successful society.

im saying is that this is one of those things that we have to accept as truth a priori because its impossible to construct an argument more basic

but then it seems you don't have any legs to stand on once I present my own version of the truth

for instance, the idea that societies are judged solely on the basis of the largest icecream cone constructed during their run

and that comes down purely to what you value

does yours not?

mine can be justified to the same extent yours can

NML is taking the common behaviors of successful societies (or, if you prefer, societies while they were successful) and extracting the commonalities between them

Its no different than the seven basic story plots

but they're only successful by the metrics you proposed, and those metrics are literally circular at times. So I see no way for you to hold your metrics above mine.

you cant apply them to any historical societies (at least the ice cream meme) though

NML works because you can

sure I can

I can apply that to every society

all ancient societies were equal failuers because they produced no ice cream cones

ok what do you actually think makes a society successful