*ordered to*

@Eoppa yes so they should do ivf instead of sex because sex can turn out to be non procreative

In vitro usually involves masturbation.

And an egg of another woman I believe

```Therefore, any case of heterologous in vitro fertilization, artificial insemination, or surrogate motherhood is considered “gravely immoral” (Catechism, #2376).```

It involves the woman you would be married to

And adultering with another

And you can get sperm out with mastruabrtion a needle would work

Irrelevant, the whole process is sinful

@Eoppa how is it adulturing?

Heterologous IVF is using the egg of another woman

Homologous IVF removes the unitive act

(And heterologous)

Well so is sex @Eoppa you can have sex with out children and that sex and the main purpose of family is to be procreative so theirfore procreative is more important

> ```"it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."``` this is the official magisterium.
@Eoppa

"More important" no

You cannot remove one part

I already said this

Where in the Bible does it say sex outside marriage is a sin

Not trying to refute

Plus they can hold hands

Genuinely curious

Fornication is sex outside of marriage

Unitive what does it mean btw @Eoppa

@Eoppa Yes ok, and the verse?

Religion and subjective moral codes aside, homosexuality isn't a choice. Hence, whichever religion punishes people for something that they did not choose and cannot change, is an evil one, and must be eradicated completely, for the sake of humanity itself.

@Maksim how many?

But now I tell you: if a man divorces his wife for any cause other than her unfaithfulness, then he is guilty of making her commit adultery if she marries again; and the man who marries her commits adultery also.
Matthew 5:32

For from your heart come the evil ideas which lead you to kill, commit adultery, and do other immoral things; to rob, lie, and slander others.
Matthew 15:19

What

I tell you, then, that any man who divorces his wife for any cause other than her unfaithfulness, commits adultery if he marries some other woman.”
Matthew 19:9

It's adultery

Not fornication

They are 2 different things

No, this is saying there is no such thing as the end of marriage to God

A civil divorce doesn't nullify a marriage

Yes how does this matter to what I was asking

Trying to end that bond is sinful and impossible

That isn't what I asked tho

I asked where it says sex outside of marriage (sex *before* marriage) is a sin