Yeah, they are pretty aggressively nonbiased

Basically they tend towards being MRAs who want to create a feminist-freindly environment to keep the dialogue going

So no MRA-hate, and policies made to keep MRAs from pushing feminists out of the space

I don't think it is an exaggeration to say it is the best environment that layman-feminism and laymen-MRAs will likely ever have to talk at each other

I hope it does well

It's just still...talking at each other

As for 3rd wave, 3rd wave was when "patriarchy" moved into the mainstream. It is home to the most intense blood libel mainstream feminism has accepted. It's also the wave where "muh wage gap" got taken seriously, "manspreading/'splaining" became a thing, and the first wave to use "intersectionallity" as racism-but-the-good-kind. It is also the wave wherein feminism really started ramping up the duties imposed on men to accommodate women, some of it reasonable, and some of it really not.

It is usually credited (possibly wrongly) for feminism embracing hypoagency, whereas before the girl-power routine was more genuine.

yeah, I definitely got a different flavor of 3rd Wave

A fraction of 3rd wave is more rooted in some of the early 2nd wave notions of equality, but without the hypocracy

but it is the fraction that isn't in power, and even then equality-of-outcome can still be prominent.

my primary exposures to 3rd wave was Riot Grrl and Roller Derby

Riot Grrl sounds pretty bad: "Because in every form of media we see ourselves slapped, decapitated, laughed at, objectified, raped, trivialized, pushed, ignored, stereotyped, kicked, scorned, molested, silenced, invalidated, knifed, shot, choked and killed. Because a safe space needs to be created for girls where we can open our eyes and reach out to each other without being threatened by this sexist society and our day to day bullshit."

Hello hegemonic rape culture lol

Also can you say DV myths?

I suppose yes... but I never felt animousity

it wasn't about demonizing men... it evolved into that yes

but it didn't start there

Well feminism is pretty good about low-keying the animosity, even while playing up the oppression narrative like that Riot Grrl quote. You can notice the same thing about some white nationalists actually. It isn't that there is aggressive domination style hate, but rather that "people should be loyal to their own race, race-traitors are bad"

I can see the line of evolution but I still feel like 3rd Wave... or at least the portion I was around... were not about demonizing and attacking masculinity

they were about empowerment...

I know its a small distinction, but I feel its important

When something demonizes in order to empower, is there a difference?

I don't really have any sort of rock to stand on in this but that I didn't FEEL threatened during 3rd Wave... but I feel it now

to be clear, I was actively involved in the Riot Grrl movement, I attended Bikini Kill's shows

I never felt hatred, I didn't feel unwelcome

I feel that now

I can't explain the distinction, but I don't feel safe in my town with 4th Wave, but I felt totally fine in 3rd Wave

That's fair. MeToo wasn't a thing then, people didn't realize that affirmative consent meant jailing men having drunk consensual sex, whereas that is much more trumped up now.

Men are trash was less mainstream

I can see a lot of how 3rd Wave is now the roots of 4th Wave

but I liked 3rd Wave... so its hard for me to dislike it for empowering and creating 4th Wave

its like seeing something you loved used for evil purposes

Let me put it another way, 3rd wave was mostly panned for being rediculous. Mansplaining and patriarchy

right, they were panned by 2nd Wave Feminists, the Feminist Establishment

Ohohoho, the feminist establishment isn't 2nd wave really.

But we pan 3rd wave for hate. All it has to be is to talk about "patriarchy" as if that's some gender neutral thing. But like a totally non-racist "jewry" (and yes, some anti-semites insist on this) it's just a veneer.

and that patriarchy and privilege requiring power as an ingredient, that's blood libel

and its false to begin with, whole-cloth historical revisionism

2nd wave had its stinkers too, Valenti and all, but the feminist establishment rejected that during 2nd wave. The objectional part there was more about gendering shit like DV through Koss' malicious research and applying gender neutrality only where it benefited women

this is all just making me think that I'm judging 4th Wave too harshly... like are there good things coming out of 4th Wave that I don't know about?