Fug, you'd be able to make a better argument if you still were operating in an eternal Universe, but physics shows up the Universe had a beginning

our small part of it had a beginning

Shoots holes in whatever approach to an uncreated universe you might put forward

noah's flood was a local flood that took place on the arabian peninsula about 13k years ago

the beginning was actually a symmetry breaking

The flood didn't happen. Someone wrote a book on it. The writer's did not mean for people to conceptualize it as real. @Deleted User let me post a good video one it.

just a state change like ice melting

something existed before then

Symmetry breaking in what?

the higgs field

You aren't solving the problem with mechanics

@glamp there was a local flood in Noah's day that flood the Persian gulf though which is where Eden is.

the point is the universe existed before the big bang

That's just sets it back

@Hector that's right

And it puts forward an eternal universe

but you said we know it has a beginning

but to a theist thats just kicking the can @fuguer

Singularity

neither of you understand the argument from motion cause it has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe

its not a singularity

I know Rose... w/e idea

The mathemetician

Amnesiac universe

etc

That still doesn't account for it

glamp you know that motion is irelevant... inertia is a byproduct of the symmetry of space

Nor does it dismiss pantheism

A flood did happen though 12k years ago, there are two different theories, the missoulou ice damn breaking, and another theory gaining traction, the comet impact theory

aquinas himself didnt think it was possible to prove by philosophical means that the universe began to exist. for the purposes of his argument it could be eternal

@Deleted User https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBNdNH227j4

Or Panentheism

doesnt matter

Watch that Panik.

i would argue the universe probably created its complexity recursively by interacting with itself

Rather those views of the Universe as eternal and cyclical are earlier found in the Vedas

when aquinas says motion he's talking about change in general

we know that a single electron can interact with itself

not only things changing position

Correct

That's exactly what the Vedas say, Fug