Message from @Mozalbete ⳩

Discord ID: 550986137355681792


2019-03-01 10:14:43 UTC  

Ehh, it's like the great created clockwork. How is that prideful? I'm looking at God's creation the way Robert Boyle did. You are looking at creation and assuming a fundamental substance exists aside from the plane material, and it's totally ad hoc. This is basically Chemistry vs Alchemy.

2019-03-01 10:15:16 UTC  

I can deal with non-physical things while believing in materialism.

2019-03-01 10:15:26 UTC  

I'm just not making the nonsensical, arbitrary assumption that the only things that exist are those that have length or whatever

2019-03-01 10:15:49 UTC  

Matter is not some fundamental thing that is in the basis of reality

2019-03-01 10:16:00 UTC  

Do you believe in a human soul that transcends death?

2019-03-01 10:16:08 UTC  

Is it different from animals?

2019-03-01 10:16:39 UTC  

Of course I do, because death is just the movement of some particles and chemicals or whatever, there is nothing from the material point of view that fundamentally changes

2019-03-01 10:17:08 UTC  

In other words: if thereisn't life of the soul after the events known as death, there was no life to begin with

2019-03-01 10:17:18 UTC  

It's kind of like when I crack a CD in half. The CD will never work again.

2019-03-01 10:17:42 UTC  

So, I have a soul that will exist after I die?

2019-03-01 10:17:46 UTC  

Because "working" just means that some process that tries to spin it and read data will work

2019-03-01 10:17:53 UTC  

in the case of the CD

2019-03-01 10:19:13 UTC  

The soul doesn't disappear because some material particles move in some way. There is an important connection to the body, so death is important, but there is literally no reason to think that death annihilates the soul.

2019-03-01 10:19:54 UTC  

Can you affirm that I have a soul that will exist after I die?

2019-03-01 10:20:15 UTC  

If you define "life" as the flow of some impulses or chemicals or whatever in some arbitrary region of space, sure, there is nothing after death. But that definition of life makes life completely empty of any value or special.

2019-03-01 10:20:30 UTC  

The obvious question is "how do you know?", but I'd like to just flesh out your beliefs first.

2019-03-01 10:20:44 UTC  

Well, I know that death is just the movement of some arbitrary particles in space

2019-03-01 10:20:54 UTC  

Nothing in the material world has changed in a significant way

2019-03-01 10:21:21 UTC  

To accept that death is something significant, there must be something beyond the material things affected by death

2019-03-01 10:21:39 UTC  

I don't see death as arbitrary. There's a qualitative difference between someone who's died and someone before they die. Their body becomes a husk.

2019-03-01 10:22:11 UTC  

Wow, what was before a bunch of particles in arbitrary regions of space, are now a bunch of particles in arbitrary regions of space. Big deal

2019-03-01 10:22:38 UTC  

"becomes a husk" is a romantic way of describing what doesn't really have any significance in the material world

2019-03-01 10:22:53 UTC  

But, can you give a straightforward answer to my question? Do I have a soul that will exist after I die? What is this soul? How long will it exist? How do you know?

2019-03-01 10:23:11 UTC  

And what you call "qualitative difference" is only a difference because you, as an individual, identify it as such, not because there is any intrinsic difference in the impersonal, external world

2019-03-01 10:23:29 UTC  

You do have a soul that will exist after death, because death affects the body

2019-03-01 10:23:57 UTC  

We can say of the soul what is revealed to us, or what we can infer though phylosophy, or theology, or similar sciences

2019-03-01 10:24:02 UTC  

Bro, I've seen animals die. I know there's a qualitative difference after. The body was just a vehicle for the mind that animates it.

2019-03-01 10:24:23 UTC  

The mind is a verb. It's perfectly consistent with materialism.

2019-03-01 10:24:25 UTC  

Which one? That you, as an individual, liked seeing some cluster of particles changing their position in space

2019-03-01 10:24:29 UTC  

The mind is part of the body

2019-03-01 10:24:35 UTC  

It is an organ, a bunch of particles.

2019-03-01 10:24:48 UTC  

That is, the brain, which is what you refer to as "mind"

2019-03-01 10:25:14 UTC  

It animates something as much as my hand animates a rock by throwing it

2019-03-01 10:25:25 UTC  

So I have a soul then? Nice. So, how long will it exist?

2019-03-01 10:25:40 UTC  

You ask that because you are used to material things degrading

2019-03-01 10:26:14 UTC  

A projection of material properties, but since the soul can't be erosed, or undergo similar things, there is no reason why it would disappear, and we with it

2019-03-01 10:26:47 UTC  

I'm just seeing if you believe in actual infinities.

2019-03-01 10:26:59 UTC  

And we are said by the prophet and Christ how the soul is eternal. And those claims are backed up by many prophecies, and miracles witnessed by people who died for them

2019-03-01 10:27:03 UTC  

There are several infinites

2019-03-01 10:27:24 UTC  

There is the idea that there is no reason why something would stop

2019-03-01 10:27:30 UTC  

Which is perfectly possible, it keeps going