Message from @Mozalbete ⳩

Discord ID: 550984744389836836


2019-03-01 10:11:03 UTC  

Materialism, as the name implies, reduces things to "matter"

2019-03-01 10:11:13 UTC  

When I say "things" I mean reality

2019-03-01 10:11:17 UTC  

Or the buddhist doctrine that experience is fundamental to reality.

2019-03-01 10:11:25 UTC  

It is the myth of the cavern and the shadows

2019-03-01 10:11:35 UTC  

Sure, matter is important in reality, of course

2019-03-01 10:11:49 UTC  

But there are, of course, things that are not matter. Why would anyone ever beleive that there is only matter?

2019-03-01 10:12:08 UTC  

Just like, why would anyone ever believe that there are only the shadows of the cavern?

2019-03-01 10:12:41 UTC  

It doesn't reduce things, no. Hypothetical things exist in the sense that we can describe reality using language.

2019-03-01 10:12:52 UTC  

Material is the proximate cause of all things.

2019-03-01 10:13:01 UTC  

I'm not talking about hypothetical things. This has nothing to do with hypothetical things

2019-03-01 10:13:25 UTC  

It is silly, and filled with pride, and arbitrary, to want to reduce things to the material

2019-03-01 10:13:43 UTC  

But the motivation is clear: the material is somehow familiar, people are used to it, and it is comfortable to reduce reality to it

2019-03-01 10:14:07 UTC  

Because it is easy, and convenient, to not to have to deal with things that can't be quantized

2019-03-01 10:14:21 UTC  

Things that have no length, or similar properties of the material

2019-03-01 10:14:43 UTC  

Ehh, it's like the great created clockwork. How is that prideful? I'm looking at God's creation the way Robert Boyle did. You are looking at creation and assuming a fundamental substance exists aside from the plane material, and it's totally ad hoc. This is basically Chemistry vs Alchemy.

2019-03-01 10:15:16 UTC  

I can deal with non-physical things while believing in materialism.

2019-03-01 10:15:26 UTC  

I'm just not making the nonsensical, arbitrary assumption that the only things that exist are those that have length or whatever

2019-03-01 10:15:49 UTC  

Matter is not some fundamental thing that is in the basis of reality

2019-03-01 10:16:00 UTC  

Do you believe in a human soul that transcends death?

2019-03-01 10:16:08 UTC  

Is it different from animals?

2019-03-01 10:16:39 UTC  

Of course I do, because death is just the movement of some particles and chemicals or whatever, there is nothing from the material point of view that fundamentally changes

2019-03-01 10:17:08 UTC  

In other words: if thereisn't life of the soul after the events known as death, there was no life to begin with

2019-03-01 10:17:18 UTC  

It's kind of like when I crack a CD in half. The CD will never work again.

2019-03-01 10:17:42 UTC  

So, I have a soul that will exist after I die?

2019-03-01 10:17:46 UTC  

Because "working" just means that some process that tries to spin it and read data will work

2019-03-01 10:17:53 UTC  

in the case of the CD

2019-03-01 10:19:13 UTC  

The soul doesn't disappear because some material particles move in some way. There is an important connection to the body, so death is important, but there is literally no reason to think that death annihilates the soul.

2019-03-01 10:19:54 UTC  

Can you affirm that I have a soul that will exist after I die?

2019-03-01 10:20:15 UTC  

If you define "life" as the flow of some impulses or chemicals or whatever in some arbitrary region of space, sure, there is nothing after death. But that definition of life makes life completely empty of any value or special.

2019-03-01 10:20:30 UTC  

The obvious question is "how do you know?", but I'd like to just flesh out your beliefs first.

2019-03-01 10:20:44 UTC  

Well, I know that death is just the movement of some arbitrary particles in space

2019-03-01 10:20:54 UTC  

Nothing in the material world has changed in a significant way

2019-03-01 10:21:21 UTC  

To accept that death is something significant, there must be something beyond the material things affected by death

2019-03-01 10:21:39 UTC  

I don't see death as arbitrary. There's a qualitative difference between someone who's died and someone before they die. Their body becomes a husk.

2019-03-01 10:22:11 UTC  

Wow, what was before a bunch of particles in arbitrary regions of space, are now a bunch of particles in arbitrary regions of space. Big deal

2019-03-01 10:22:38 UTC  

"becomes a husk" is a romantic way of describing what doesn't really have any significance in the material world

2019-03-01 10:22:53 UTC  

But, can you give a straightforward answer to my question? Do I have a soul that will exist after I die? What is this soul? How long will it exist? How do you know?

2019-03-01 10:23:11 UTC  

And what you call "qualitative difference" is only a difference because you, as an individual, identify it as such, not because there is any intrinsic difference in the impersonal, external world

2019-03-01 10:23:29 UTC  

You do have a soul that will exist after death, because death affects the body

2019-03-01 10:23:57 UTC  

We can say of the soul what is revealed to us, or what we can infer though phylosophy, or theology, or similar sciences

2019-03-01 10:24:02 UTC  

Bro, I've seen animals die. I know there's a qualitative difference after. The body was just a vehicle for the mind that animates it.