Just like people's use of "objective" these days, very similar.

Or "innate" or whatever

All of those concepts are highly misunderstood by a lot of people.

@ETBrooD Can you give an example of a form of "Nationalism" based on Individualism?

Not based on

I criticized your use of "inherent"

Nationalism may or may not lean towards collectivism, but that depends on how it is done by the people making up the ruling class

Putting the interests of the nation will inevitably require that some individual "liberties" are trampled

Most common example is building a wall

No, that's only how humans have been doing it

Nationalism as applied to any intelligent species doesn't have to be collectivist

Can you give a hypothetical example of such form of Nationalism?

I mean it's pretty obvious, you just let people choose their own hierarchies

It's far too complex to work for human nations

You're referring to a Voluntaryist commune, which will dissolve in just a few generations without order

As I said, too complex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism

The order exists though, after consenting to a hierarchy

Their descendants might not consent to that hierarchy, then what?

That's why it's complex and can't be done with human societies

This could change if or when applied to different life forms

This is similar to Hoppe's societies of voluntary communes which don't allow gays or blacks etc. It might happen that someone's child might not consent to it and it would break down the society

Either way, my argument is that if you say that nationalism leans towards collectivism, I will agree.

Like I said, you have to think outside of the human realm.

An equally or more intelligent species can have nationalism that isn't neccessarily collectivist.

Since them not consenting won't annul property rights

Anyway, brb

> That's why it's complex and can't be done with human societies

Why is there a discussion on it then?

American Nationalism extrapolated from our civic values, for example, @ETBrooD, the true form of American patriotism.

@Jeremy American Nationalism is based on Germanic Europeans with some other Europeans thrown in.

@Goddess Tyche because of Ford's use of "inherent"

It most certainly isn't, rather it's rooted in Natural Law philosophy, which branches down from Anglicism.

It's inherent in humans to form societies, those societies will most often turn into nations, and those nations will most often be collectivist. Not because it's inherent in nationalism, but because it's human nature (as an aggregate).

Do not tell me what my own family founded here, @Goddess Tyche.

It's not a discussion on what, rather on who.

I agree with the Natural Law via Anglicism thing. I contest that you can have that without the proper racial and cultural background.

There are different types of nationalisms

A family member of mine, Baldur von Schirach, onetime leader of the Hitler Youth and later Governor ("Gauleiter" or "Reichsstatthalter") of the Reichsgau Vienna, shared your view, @Goddess Tyche. However, we did eventually bring him to justice for his crimes.

*Hitler breathed air, which is now a crime*

Jeremy, kill yourself.

No, wait, just go to Chicago and get 13-50ed