And yes I can, that is history.

You’re saying values have inherent value if they stick around long nuff

I can pick a specific time period and say that is better than other time periods

By that logic hunter gatherer should be the optimal way to handle society

No, I am not

That is not my argument

What is it then?

That the values i mentioned are fundamental - and i don't mean "deeply rooted" by history - but deeply rooted in culture and that historically is proven to have worked. I can absolutely say that one time had better beliefs in my view than another time period, this is not cherry picking.

Just because something is deeply rooted doesn’t mean it’s valuable or efficient, the Chinese Empry lasted for 2 millennia

Look where they are now

The people were tired of them so they disposed of them

It worked.

For 2000 yearsd

Longer than most systems

Not forever tho, when the Qing got overthrown they were stuck in the past

Humiliated by other powers

Simply because they didnt industrialize

Yea because they saw it as a threat to their power

And?

And it was as seen with the Kuomintang

What's your point here

The values they held were fundamentally opposed to industrialization

Hence they engineered their own downfall

What values did they hold that were fundamentally opposed to industrialization?

Social Traditionalism is not in conflict with industrialization.

It is tho, you can’t have space travel whilst believing the earth is flat

Believing the earth is flat has nothing to do with social traditionalism, and you are over exasperating and bringing in irrelevant points with the earth is flat thing.

I’m bringing up an example, fundamental Christian beliefs of the Middle Ages are an example of that.
As with the Qing the industrialization also brought in values like democracy and parliamentarianism which they opposed

Believing the earth was flat was *not* a fundamental Christian belief.

It was? They believed that for millennia

You take the meaning of fundamental and apply it to something that isnt fundamental, fundmental is something that must be there

Like belief Christ is the son of God

That is fundmanetal

Because changing that would change everything

It was? The earth not being flat changed everything because it proves the heliocentric worldview and that the earth is not the center of the universe

That is not fundamental to Christian belief

It was a scientific dispute, not a theological dispute

Galileo was an adamant Christian, if it was fundamental he would've left the faith.

He didnt.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..