Message from @versterven

Discord ID: 434137006877048853


2018-04-12 23:37:23 UTC  

is it because of oppressor/oppressed memes

2018-04-12 23:37:37 UTC  

No, it's because of my experience dealing with progressives

2018-04-12 23:38:15 UTC  

what does "application of Marxist theory to social structure" mean

2018-04-12 23:38:51 UTC  

Replace economics with social structure, replace bourgeoisie with white men, replace proletariat with minorities.

2018-04-12 23:40:17 UTC  

you could do the same thing with early liberals who were an influence on marx's class theory

2018-04-12 23:40:34 UTC  

the core of what you're getting at is that an anlysis of power dynamics = marxism

2018-04-12 23:41:25 UTC  

which is silly, the core of marxism has to do with a materialist interpretation of historical development and the role class struggle plays in this development

2018-04-12 23:41:29 UTC  

no, progressive "manifestos" and other similar writings are eerily similar to "down with the bourgeoisie" type stuff.

2018-04-12 23:42:11 UTC  

i don't think superificial similarities between polemics constitutes these ideologies being the same

2018-04-12 23:42:17 UTC  

I think this gives an accurate description of Liberalism, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293022642230001676/434084687103787019/image.jpg

2018-04-12 23:42:31 UTC  

I'm not saying their the same, but they are eerily similar

2018-04-12 23:42:49 UTC  

literally can be used in a loose manner of meaning

2018-04-12 23:43:09 UTC  

Which is what I was doing when using the word "literally"

2018-04-12 23:43:30 UTC  

Meaning they are very similar and are against several of the same tenants of liberalism.

2018-04-12 23:44:19 UTC  

so when oldschool liberals like adolphe blanqui were writing about how there are two "classes", those who live by their own labor and oppressors who live on the labor of others

2018-04-12 23:44:33 UTC  

could you not just use the same example you have used with marxism and progressivism here

2018-04-12 23:44:45 UTC  

just replace the parasites with white men and those who live by their own labor with minorities

2018-04-12 23:45:01 UTC  

Liberalism, like any other ideology has many versions of itself, I am a classical liberal.

2018-04-12 23:45:14 UTC  

yes and adolphe blanqui was a classical liberal

2018-04-12 23:45:22 UTC  

many classical liberals had similar ideas

2018-04-12 23:45:28 UTC  

they were a big influence on marx

2018-04-12 23:46:03 UTC  

Also, at that time, society was something much more akin to exploitation.

2018-04-12 23:46:35 UTC  

That's why Marx has some valid criticism of society at the time he wrote, but now his points are mostly moot.

2018-04-12 23:47:19 UTC  

Society evolves and changes, ideologies do the same to match society.

2018-04-12 23:47:59 UTC  

I prefer to prescribe to the ideas of John Locke, except the blank slate idea.

2018-04-12 23:48:15 UTC  

ideologies can evolve and marxism has evolved a lot

2018-04-12 23:48:25 UTC  

yes, and yet it is still wrong.

2018-04-12 23:48:40 UTC  

it is just that right wingers have not been able to demonstrate that modern progressivism and post-modernism as a whole represents an evolution of marxism

2018-04-12 23:49:12 UTC  

at least not anymore so than marxism would constitute an evolution of classical liberalism

2018-04-12 23:49:16 UTC  

they don't represent an evolution of marxism, they represent the subversion of marxism into western society.

2018-04-12 23:49:32 UTC  

what does that mean

2018-04-12 23:50:40 UTC  

modern progressives would almost never call themselves marxist, most of their teachers would neither, and most of their teachers would neither, the people who were the actual marxists in academia are long gone or very old, very few progressives would describe themselves as marxists, but tracing their ideology back leads to marxist roots, especially looking at intersectionality and feminism.

2018-04-12 23:51:02 UTC  

how are intersectionality and feminism marxist

2018-04-12 23:51:03 UTC  

There were even 2nd wave feminists who outright wrote that their ideology had a basis in marxism.

2018-04-12 23:51:11 UTC  

yeah marxist feminism is a thing

2018-04-12 23:51:15 UTC  

liberal feminism is also a thing

2018-04-12 23:51:27 UTC  

neither of these things make feminism as a whole marxist or liberal

2018-04-12 23:51:45 UTC  

and marxist feminism has become the dominant voice of feminism in the progressive movement.

2018-04-12 23:51:49 UTC  

I'm nto sayin it does

2018-04-12 23:51:59 UTC  

but one has overtaken the other

2018-04-12 23:52:25 UTC  

that's why even progressives will go after liberal feminists from time to time for "excluding transgenders".