I don't favor it. The reality is that teens under 18 are having sex.

@Massie1223 LoL I agree

Yeah, I do see a huge difference. The 26 year old can actually be financially responsible for a pregnancy that may result. As far as experience goes, I'm dating a woman that had more experience at 14 than I have at 61. [She's older than me in case someone gets the wrong idea.] Now, can you articulate a different view?

Um no. First off, your personal relationship is simply anecdotal evidence and can hardly be considered to be the norm of how those relationships work out.

That aside, I think its speculative and likely not the case that very many 26 wanting to hook up with 14 year old is going the responsible type with a good job and insurance.

But, that really isn't even the point, is it?

The concern here is for the 14 year old CHILD with whom the 26 year old is having sex. The possibility of pregnancy is hardly the ONLY or even most important concern here.

I really find it super hard to understand why you think sex between a 14 year old and a 26 year old (or presumably older) should not be criminalized, baring any serious mental defect in the 26+ year old. And, if we are dealing with a severely mentally deficient individual your argument of employ to support the child of the child he had sex with completely dissipates. Public assistance is hardly a nice paycheck.

And before you point to the reverse where the male is the younger partner... I think both are equally as vile. It would also through a shit ton of cold water on your ability to pay for the baby theory.

I get the feeling you are far less concerned with Maxwell getting a fair trial and far more concerned about the legality of sexual intercourse with minors. But, that is just my take from reading your comments.

The mental maturity between 14 and 24 is not linear. It is not the same as the difference between the mental maturity of a 24 yr old and 34 yr old. On average the difference will in mental maturity will be stark.


Taking advantage of someone who lacks the agency to understand the impact of their “consensual” behavior is morally wrong. Just as it is morally wrong to have someone sign a contract intoxicated and hold someone to it, to have someone agree to a loan where they don’t understand the terms and take advantage of them financially or any other behavior where one party clearly lacks insight and agency as to the effect of an agreement.

If you don’t believe that is wrong, it’s hard to explain why your example falls into that category. As a society we must agree to an age that we believe most people will have agency to make these decisions. Maybe 16 or 17 is where the median is, but we must find an age that protects 99.99% of people. So it’s is cumulative not an average. 18 is where society has drawn that line in most cases.

The equal protection is simple. If you sleep with someone is physically mature but who lacks the maturity or agency to understand the full impact of their choices, at a later date they should be able to address any perceived or real damage you caused them, because you were presumably the person with agency. If they are beyond 18 and they lack agency, it’s likely there are other issues.

If you apply this rule of agency to situations in general, it’s unlikely you will find yourself taking advantage of people.

So it agency not experience which is central, in my opinion, to the morality of someone’s behavior, with regards to this issue.

You both ( @Gypsy and @JD~Jordan ) have made the case of why the 14 year old should not be having sex. Or why the older guy should not be taking advantage of the younger girl. [I prefer to stick with that one. The reverse is valid but let's just stick with the one case before trying to expand it.] Where you have failed is to justify why it is AOK for two 14 year olds to have sex. I never said that I 26 year old could be financially responsible; only that he has a better chance of being responsible than a 14 year old. @Gypsy 's equal protection argument totally misses. The 14 chooses a sex partner that is 18 and that is okay and legal. But if she chooses a 28 year then it is illegal. Explain that!

It has been made, structures of power/authority are what make it okay for kids to screw around with one another and not adults and kids. It's not an extremely difficult concept. Let me see if I can get something on that topic. 14 vs 18 is actually illegal in a lot of states, and it again, has to do with power structures and relationship dynamics.

You've just chosen not to research what we've discussed.

Harvey Weinstein disagrees with you

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications/2019-01/Power%20Dynamics%20Handout_508.pdf Here is a short version of power dynamics.

14 vs 18 is legal in some states. It's difficult to come up with a one size fits all. The states do vary widely. I have researched it to a degree. I don't see an argument I can guy. I'll read that PDF shortly.

Ignore the white privilege stuff.

In Wyoming and North Dakota you can basically arrange marriage for anyone as long a judge agrees with it... Religion and cult followings have alot of power over peoples lives when it comes to marriage and sexual consent in these states...

The idea of agency changes given cultural beliefs, accepted truths.

I vehemently disagree that the law is appropriate when a 14 year old 'can consent' with an 18 year old, and many people agree with me too fortunately.

I agree with you.

I just skimmed it. I do agree about the power dynamics. I just disagree that it always flows from older to younger. I have seen fictitious accounts where the younger was more experienced. Maybe that never happens. The reality is that we cannot know because we are not going to find out; if it is illegal then no one is going to tell.

Sexual experience isn't everything.

It's one small building block.

It's primarily about agency.

Enough people thought it was appropriate to make it legal. But I only use 18 because 18 is legally an adult. Is 14 and 16 okay?

It is in other countries.

I'm only talking US.

Fitch_and_Ruggles.pdf

If there was a 14 year old and 16 year old wanting to fool around? Sure, seems fine to me. The power dynamics aren't that massively skewed.

When one starts working I would argue the power dynamics begin to skew though.

Ever see the movie "Summer of '42"?

Nope.

Watch it then let's discuss the power dynamics.

I'll keep it in mind, thanks for the recommendation! Hopefully I'll have some time over the weekend to do so.

I explained exactly why one scenario makes sense and another doesn’t. I do not think I can make it more clear if you still do not understand.

Watch the movie then explain to me why that poor woman deserves 20 years in prison!

_cringes so hard he becomes a raisin._

@GregInHouston2 what movie?

First off... I never once said that it was "AOK for two 14 year olds to have sex" and I am unclear where you got that impression from anything I have said.

Most States have chosen different ages of consent, but most are around 16. But even then there is typically a great deal of importance placed on the age gap and it should be easy to see why such importance is placed upon that gap. It has to do with power dynamics AND just as importantly if not more so we, as humans, do a whole lot of growing and maturing in our teen years.

For me to suggest that an 18 year old is significantly more mature and advanced sexually than a 16 is likely going to get laughed at... at the very least many will object, and for good reason. But if I then suggest to you that a 26 year old is more mature and advances sexually than a 14 year old I would hope you would not object so fiercely.

It is absolutely true that on some level we have to recognize that individual people grow and mature at different rates and I have no doubt that you can find 17 year olds far more mature than some 25 year olds. But, in general, I hope we can all agree that 26 year olds are more mature and sexually advanced than 14 year olds. Think of it this way: It would shock me to hear someone had reached 26 without sexual intercourse with at least one partner. I would find is somewhat shocking to find out a 14 not to be a virgin.

As to your question....
"The 14 chooses a sex partner that is 18 and that is okay and legal. But if she chooses a 28 year then its is illegal. Explain that."

First... I never said it was okay or legal. In fact, in many States an 18 year old having sex with a 14 year IS ILLEGAL. In Tennessee its called Statutory Rape.

But, @GregInHouston2, let me get to the heart of your issue:

I do not believe that most 14 year olds are capable of consenting to sexual intercourse and since many States agree with me, lets make this a bit more grey:

A 16 year old can legally consent to sex with an 18yr old but they cannot with a 21yr old or above in most States. That is because most States set the age of consent at 16 but only with someone within 3 to 4 years (depending of the State) of the 16 year old - so at most 20yrs old.

So your question then becomes why is it ok for a 16 year old to consent to sex with a 19 year old and its not if the other party is 26? There is more validity to this question as after all some of these numbers are arbitrary. But the core of the logic here is two fold:
1) The larger the gap in age, particularly in these teen years, the larger the power and experience dynamic. Thus the more likely it is that the older partner is taking advantage of the lower.

2) It is completely reasonable that a 15 year old and 17 year old start dating and are engaging in sex. At some point the 17 year old is going to become an adult and the 15 will still be a minor. It makes no sense as all that those two minors who have been engaging in sex "legally" for some period of time are now violating the law just because the older is now 18.

So the bottom line here for me personally is that 14 year olds should not be able to give consent for sex. If it happens with another minor then we can let the juvenile courts sort it out without anyone facing a criminal record- so long at it was not forced.

And given it seems a ridiculous position to argue that there is no difference in a 14 year old having sex with another 14 year old than a 14 year old having sex with a 26 year old. Its just boggles the mind that you do not see the clear problem with that position.

So, once again, it seems less and less likely that your claim of wanting a fair trial for Maxwell is at the heart of your argument and more and more likely that you seem to want to do away with laws designed to protect minors from sexual predators.

Again, power dynamics and positions of power.

Age is one of many of the important factors in this.

Income and wealth are close to follow.

Social standing goes with the two above, and is another important factor.