So Loki you say Israel is an illegitimate State ?

Dude, Shapiro v. Loki debate would be sick

If we can agree on a definition / set of concepts that mean "legitimate" we can debate "illegitimacy" as opposed to that. Or, we could agree on the meaning of illegitimate and debate. In which case the debate would be different.

We can all agree that legitimacy has a moral - thus subjective side. Also we must agree to the extent of which that moral side matters or not.

But my feeling is that Israel wins

Study the history of Zionism, and how it played on the UK ending colonialism plus sympathies post-WW-II, to extend a century of rigged land sales into seizing Palestine by military invasion, in the same year the Crime of Genocide was adopted in international law (largely pushed by sympathy for Jews being victims of Germany's NS-DAP, which was actually more similar than different from Zionists, as supremacist violent gangs seeking exclusive homelands).

Zionism is no different than "America First".

Which isn't necessarily bad.

If one studies international war and related law, it's pretty easy to conclude that most people belong in prison or dead, and that any exemptions are more likely in nations with brutal dictators, and never in participatory democracies where paying taxes or voting meets the (impossible to enforce) legal tests for the Crime of Genocide.

So by that standard, the USA and UK, among others, go down with Israel, or at least everyone acting as military or economic or social allies do.

There are also issues as to whether being a Rome Statute signatory should matter. It's a bit like questioning if the archaic Law of Nations is really realistic in a global telecom, travel and economics village, alongside whether at the nation-state level, if the equivalent of a bank robber has a valid claim to not being violent major criminals if each individual bank robber didn't proactively agree up front to be subject to criminal laws.

Interesting views all around

> Zionism is no different than "America First".
@Yussuki ₪
But it is different, at least in terms of historic development of international law, and formation by crimes at the time of the country's origin. The US Trail of Tears for Indian tribes was a lot like the century of rigged land sales in Palestine that enabled the 1950's war based grab for the remainder, but that predates any such modern law. The entire Doctrine of Discovery based colonialism of most of Africa and parts of the Americas and Asia was a human rights scam and genocide competition among at least 7 European powers, but that's a bygone era of history now.

Zionism (and actions it drove) differ mainly in terms of its genocide scams falling into the period of modern world class crimes, where many political and military allies had assumed obligations to prevent that.

I believe, the more we go back into History, we will probably reach the Cambrian Explosion. However, we can agree that from a legal perspective, Israel is a legitimate State ?

It's legitimacy is far beyond it's mere "Right to exist" as it has been first proposed. We can agree on this ?

Relevant to that ICC/UN framework, Israel;s existence being a fraud and criminal isn't subjective. It was primarily based on violent crimes at the time of land seizure and formation.

There are major issues with how that body of law works, and now after generations of Israelis, what can be done about it. But, that history cannot be undone.

A claim of Zionists is that Jews have some claim to Palestine, as they're Jews, and Jews are entitled arrogant pieces of shit. On that basis, why didn't we help Hitler clean up that crime problem? Those same Zionists were on record claiming it'd be worth the deaths of half of Jews worldwide, if they could steal Palestine as Zion. Lots of respect for more peaceful fellow Jews there, eh?

And with the UN, process was rigged to exclude Palestine from having a seat to timely protest, sort of like how Somalia during civil wars was excluded from process to demand to not be used as Asia's HazMat dump, making cheap stuff for the US and EU.

Ok so you say : 1. The existence of Israel is based on fraud // and 2. Israel should have a moral obligation to compensate it.

1. Which is the fraud?

2. What compensations you see fit ?

To my knowledge, the contesters of Israel have dubious undemocratic governments and are very much associated with terrorism and lack of human rights: Yemen, Kuweit, Sudan, Somalia, etc. However, to my knowledge, their views are not based on international consensus. Their claims are not shared by the world leading states. Also , it is not in their power to denounce internationally agreed treatis and conventions. For example, if Denmark and Isral sign a bilateral treaty, it's not Yemen's business to denounce it.

In my opinion the existence of Israel is very beneficial for World Peace and Equilibrium in the Middle East. Had it not been for Israel, we would have had a lot more suicide bombers.

In some cases, the ends justify the means. For example, if the US wouldn't have waged war against Irak (remember the inexistent WMD), we would have had a Huge Iran , whose ayatollah would control 1/6th of the world economy. Sometimes, you need to break some eggs to make an omlette.

You would have had a Mega Terrorist State: Iran + Irak + Afghanistan + Jordan + Syria + Palestine + Qatar + Yemen + Saudi Arabia = World Dynamite Barrel.

I think he describes the fraud as being Israeli genocide of Palestinians culminating in the Zionist movement, the culmination occurring the same year as the institution of the law against genocide.

Luckily, the Bush ppl understood that. Otherwise we wouldn't stay and talk on Discord. And those sacrifices that have been made will give us a century of relative peace.

Like you say zino, it’s unclear what Loki wants as reparations from Israel

Yea.. as for the genocide, the waters are murky. Israel says they gave a due warning, palestinians disagree

I’m reading up on the wwii era Israeli history rn, I’m not familiar with it

A lot of persecution and slavery. But their hardships ironed their will and intelligence. 20% of all Nobel Prizes went to them. (which is remarkable because their population is like 0.2%) Almost half of all scientific discoveries in the world are made by jews. It seems that on average, they have bigger IQ.

During WW2, we would hide them in medieval villages of Transylvania and ancient caves so the nazi wouldn't find them. We saved like half of all remaining jews after the Holocaust

The history of the Jewish Aliyahs, or migrations into Palestine, from the late 1800s to about the 1940s is interesting. @LokiV you have to explain to me when this Zionist genocide occurred, because I have not come across it. It seems to me that the Jews in the Aliyahs all bought their land fairly from feudal lords, and that conflict only arose after Arabs instigated it with the increasing influx of Jews into Palestine

There is the case of Constantin Karadja, a Romanian Diplomat that single handedly saved 52.000 thousand jews. He painstaickingly forged there documents and smuggled them to Romania to save them. He was awarded the title "Righteous among the Peoples" by Israel.

Also there is the mother of one aviation pilot , Viorica Agarici who risked her life to feed jew refugees in a death train.

And countless other cases of heroic ppl

The novels on these sorts of stories are great too. The book thief is one of my favorite books

Also, the hiding place is quite popular, I haven’t read it tho

The Romanian officials or clerks would forge their documents and declare them romanians

Or adopt them illegaly

Yea, I understand a few German families would hide them in their basements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

Most of those land sales were rigged with the help/conspiracy of the UK, as part of its colonialism involvement.

Oddly given how my awareness has shifted as I've over many years realized how Israel was formed, I as an intellectual techie have more affinity with education-focused, generally English speaking Jews, than most Arabs.

I see reparations as an issue of historic "old" abuses. Since Israel is part of the modern law era internationally (that I see as starting to evolve with the war crimes conventions as Berne & its updates, or Geneva on POW's etc), it qualifies to be eradicated and land and economic assets returned to Palestine control. The post-Ottoman Empire split of Arab tribes into modern geopolitical nation-states with governments that have a challenge to wrestle millennium old feuding tribes in a single nation, falls on the other side of that "old history" line at this point, but I agree has lots of messy issues, both internally, and as to what or how external threats qualify to be externally regulated, or not.

It'd be interesting to see if the issues of suicide bombers and other terrorism cells ever formed, had the US, UK, and allies not backed the wrongful formation of Israel on stolen land. That's one for the hypotheticals arena at best.

In terms of military strategy, most of the series of follow up wars and related war crimes perpetrated by Israel make sense, but only if the foundational existence of Israel is valid. Since it's based on fundamentally criminal and fraud based origins, within the current era of international law, that validity seems void.

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As to the Downing Street memo, I was among those who once available, inspected it, and noted the Word metadata headers that identified its origins as a specific LAN node PC in Scotland Yard. Linguists I know, and others of more notoriety, observed it was also the wrong language for the alleged interception source.

Whether the point at which GHW Bush stopped our first Iraq invasion was wise, or was misguided even if reflecting his ethics to comply with select war crimes limits, is a messy question that at least shows him to be an intelligent, honest politician (of whom I have some added knowledge as he was in my dad's Yale class).

What his son the Chimp in Chief later did, along with Blair and Scotland Yard, qualify the whole bunch of them for summary extermination, albeit the EU operating the Hague court seems to disdain anything beyond caging such criminals, if it's even allowed to prosecute them. (Note, GW Bush as Bab's "accident", hatched when Ms. Pierce was fucking the returned Army Air Corps fly boy from WW-II, after she graduated the Northampton Neurotics Cult Camp (Smith '47), and had to wait around for Yale '48 to end before heading down to Texas to pop out a more orderly series of planned kids.) Or, too bad the Chimp didn't die while coked up and drunk, AWOL from the TANG assignment rigged for him to avoid the heroin laden festivities in Nam....

Strange how history can be shaped by those dark underbellies of power families, and not just their public faces. One could also note how the Bush Chimp's SAT scores were way too low for Yale admission, but were waived due to robber baron Prescott's old money, and GHWB's legacy status.