Message from @drenath
Discord ID: 761534040767201300
I’m just more confused after reading that actually
As to Kyle Rittenhouse, and noting many details reflect contradictory and paradoxical laws and related politics or judicial process:
He was a police Explorer cop wannabe, and likely thought he understood stuff most 25+ humans with full neurological development do not.
At age 17 he was designated as an armed militia member under long standing US law, and at the same time excluded by the lawyer fiction "bright line" of majority from being employable in hazardous jobs, or from linked "adult" rights and capacities.
Under state laws that are demonstrably illegal but generally upheld by courts, his appearance with a rifle (not a pistol, revolver, or gun) at protests/riots was inherently criminal under that state's laws.
As a minor, he was incapable of being hired by the car dealership at which he was standing guard, and shot and killed someone who apparently was trying to firebomb outdoor lot cars.
Had he been a legal adult, and the firebombing being stopped by lethal force been against a home or the business building proper, and depending on state interpretation he been a lawful agent of said business, stopping arson by force is lawful defensive homicide under normal MPC variants and interpretation. But, his actions were not that, and fell in that episode into a far messier legal position.
I’m just asking if it’s self defense
Why do you need to attack his character before making your point
He wanted to be a cop, is that really a sin?
Answer my question about the 14 year old girl
Kyle then fled down the street, as a crowd viewed what he did in the car lot as if 2nd degree murder or negligent homicide.
Police let him pass, possibly not connecting him yet to that killing.
Two protesters, one with a skateboard, another who turned out to have a pistol, treated Kyle from what they'd seen as a fleeing felon who was an armed threat and needed to be arrested and disarmed.
Kyle either tripped or was knocked down, and shot both of them, killing one, and severely injuring the other.
Whether that was self defense, or a 2nd degree murder plus an attempted murder, hinges on whether Kyle was legitimately being pursued as a fleeing felon and resisting arrest or disarming, or whether his first killing was justifiable, as well as whether he's viewed as illegally carrying a rifle into a restricted state (which he was, unless its laws could be held invalid as they are in theory but not practice), and all that follows inherently secondary crimes to the original firearm violations.
If the car lot incident hadn't taken place, it'd be easier to view the street shootings after as self defense; but then, it's likely the two additional shooting victims would not have pursued him, either. Regardless, the state law use of the rifle by a minor issues could still apply.
I see stronger basis to hold the car lot shooting as criminal, and link the follow up as secondary to that, and not be self defense as Kyle disqualified himself from that affirmative defense claim, but overall, that's a mess without nice clear answers.
That's a lot of words, but given how little understanding of the underlying history or law is common knowledge, I tried to lay out as a foundation for any interpretation. Hopefully I adhered to the Einstein philosophy to keep it as simple as possible, but NO simpler. There are millions of words for further research in any of several fields related to the above.
I will not express a blanket opinion on the 14 year old example outside a specific case with known facts, as false rape accusations are common; age of consent laws widely violate civil rights, and in many states law defines away consent even if present; location may matter under state statutes or jurisprudence of questionable validity as to firearms or other force (and so global national or international discussions are flawed from the start); and legal system limits can't deal well with human developmental differences. What if a 13 year old girl tried giving a drunk or sleeping 14 year old boy a blow job?
My remarks about attitudes of cop-wannabes are based on actual experiences with some, as well as part time and younger cops who often should have been washed out before graduating Academy or POST certification, and stories from lawyer and police contract Psychologist friends. It's nearly impossible to be a highly competent cop due to larger contradictions in law plus human behaviors. Persons who'd act as Kyle did remind me of people who should be washed out by psych screening, or later, actual cops friends or I have all too infrequently gotten fired.
As to Kyle, couple of other key facts I missed before....
Of the two guys who tried to stop and disarm him down the street, the skateboarder was known to other protesters as a pacifist, and was clearly trying to stop someone identified as an armed killer, and had no intent to try to assault, injure, or kill Kyle, beyond seeing he was stopped and disarmed. Reports of less detail suggest the same of the other guy with the pistol. As such, any use of force by Kyle against them would have been criminal and not defensive, but crowds and riots are dangerous in and of themselves, and scramble such refined details easier to sort from afar.
That's also in part why Peter Pace resigned under the Bush Chimp, as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who didn't care to conspire in war crimes, or why senior military officers were troubled when tricked into accompanying Trump for a TV stunt that used chemical weapons illegally to run off peaceful protesters from one of only two parks in DC that DoI/NPS CFR allow gatherings without prior permits (and they're a real mind warp clusterfuck, if anyone else has read them while trying to plan DC events as I have). Those are no-win situations for officials, to find oneself in a position where you have legal obligation to disobey illegal orders, or arrest a criminal mob boss in context where that requires killing. Power and justice systems are too often very messy.
==
Expanding on that 13 year old giving the 14 yo boy a BJ when he wasn't fully conscious, what if she got him on the verge of cumming, and objected after the fact because he rammed his dick fully down her throat, leaving her asphyxiated temporarily and so quivering more strongly around his dick and so he grabbed her head and pulled it on more strongly, leaving her later claiming that amounted to rape despite starting from her actions and leading to conditions where she was unable to communicate that and he wouldn't respond until after shooting his load anyway? (and ignoring age of consent laws they both violate in many places)
What if she sucked him until he got hard enough to fuck, and then jumped on him being even hornier herself, but as he became more conscious realized he was compelled to orgasm but shoved his dick up her ass to limit pregnancy risks, and she didn't care for that? (Or what if they were 18 and 19, to remove statutory frauds issues, but retain sleep or implied mutual consent to relaxed personal boundaries aspects of drinking together and then hopping into bed?)
With the age 13/14 conditions, how many places would prosecute the girl for raping the boy?
Your mind goes to sick places just from a simple question that you still didn’t answer
If a 14 year old shot her attempted rapist, was it self defense? Yes or no?
Keep in mind she’s 14 and can’t legally carry a gun.
TRUMP HAS COVID
94.6% survival rate 🤷🏻♂️
> TRUMP HAS COVID
@Blue Sailor
> 94.6% survival rate 🤷🏻♂️
@Ozymandias
In that case, let's get hypothetical for our own entertainment.
Scenario One: Trump sadly does not survive. What happens next?
> 94.6% survival rate 🤷🏻♂️
@Ozymandias
In his age group?
(Presumably he tested positive without symptoms? In which case, odds are good for him.)
This just so shocking. Truly nobody could have seen this coming - I mean, he was so careful at those huge indoor rallies with his thousands of supporters, many of whom reject masks and think the coronavirus is a liberal hoax
Conspiracy theory: Biden gave it to him during the debates in order to knock him out of the election
Conspiracy theory 2: Trump is lying in order to stall the election.
> Your mind goes to sick places just from a simple question that you still didn’t answer
@JPMcGlone
Do you have any clue how much of a halfwit bigoted jerk you are?
Jurisdiction matters, and the whole of the facts matter.
14 year olds in many cases do have lawful access to firearms, at least on certain private property.
If the 14 year old initiated sex with another early teen in a state defining both to be below age of consent, or with someone drunk or sleeping at any age if in an affirmative consent insane laws state like California, everyone involved could claim self defense shooting each other, as could third party shooters claiming to act on behalf of other parties. At the same time it might be arguable that the parties initiating violations forfeited any affirmative defense. Only a nutcase or a liar or an idiot would pretend applicable law can be analyzed out of context.
As a general principle of law, noting both sex and firearms trigger political abuses often at odds with valid law, being in the position of a "clean hands" victim of violent felonies generally offers some claim to a right to use whatever means is available for self defense, just as stealing food or vandalizing property if injured or in a survival situation in the wilderness may not always be criminal, even if so defined in statute.
===
It's bad faith trolling to repeatedly prod for answers you've already been told aren't possible with the ungrounded hypotheticals being used to troll.
This aged well.
https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1311895075610337286
Loki, my hypothetical isn’t possible? Are you kidding me? @m.miller I’ve been nothing but kind to this man in this back and forth, and he’s called me a half witted jerk, accused me of coming at him in bad faith and lies about the fact that my question is some sort of impossible hypothetical.
Nobody calling for his removal. This is what I’m talking about, M. Laughable.
Hey @ola Trump responded more like a kind human being to the news of RBG’s death than you did to the news of him testing positive for COVID.
But you wouldn’t know that because in your own words: “Out of respect for her, I didn’t listen to his comment.”
The hatred boiling up in the hearts of the left is really sad. I hope he recovers well! And I’m sure he will.
Remember, they are tested ROUTINELY. They likely test positive before any symptoms occur.
@Katelyn he literally never said coronavirus is a liberal hoax. He said much of the news around coronavirus is a hoax, and it is. He said a lot of the news around how he’s dealt with coronavirus is a hoax, and it is.
And you’re just proving his point.
Let’s hope the news around coronavirus is a hoax then. 🤞
> Let’s hope the news around coronavirus is a hoax then. 🤞
@StoneCold316
I live in a very low SARS-Cov-II rate area, but that's still non-zero.
My brother lives in an area a couple hours outside NYC, and says "Everyone knows someone who's died."
A niece far away ended up by a coincidence of circumstances managing an elder care facility that was converted to a Covid ward. That's only marginally safer than direct patient staff she tries to keep healthy.
Trump never said anything like COVID doesn’t exist.
When Trump shut down the borders with China, Democrats were literally saying it was overkill and xenophobic.
It all started there. Then Democrats became the party of “shut it down” MORE than Trump and their tune changed.
This country is so divided
I really hope we don’t find out that his “test positive” is some sort of trick to get him off the campaign trail!
Is it beneath Trump’s enemies to pull that off? The people who are yelling that they’ll “stop at nothing” to make sure he doesn’t win the election?
If, hypothetically, we found that out, and nobody is tried for treason, then we lose this country because there is nothing (short of an assassination) that would be considered treasonous anymore.
But this is hypothetical.
Sadly, I wouldn’t be totally surprised
For the BLM bigots, and microaggression scammers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RovF1zsDoeM
@m.miller more of it.
Careful Loki, they’re gonna ban you and unban you too.
Actually no they won’t, you have the “right views”. Stupid mob lol
> Hey @ola Trump responded more like a kind human being to the news of RBG’s death than you did to the news of him testing positive for COVID.
>
> But you wouldn’t know that because in your own words: “Out of respect for her, I didn’t listen to his comment.”
>
> The hatred boiling up in the hearts of the left is really sad. I hope he recovers well! And I’m sure he will.
>
> Remember, they are tested ROUTINELY. They likely test positive before any symptoms occur.
@JPMcGlone
I'm not required to be polite about him. I wish people would understand that.
Nevertheless, I've been fairly polite. Note the word "sadly" and the consideration I've given to his good chances of being fine.
As for "hatred" and "left" -- irrelevant.
> @Katelyn he literally never said coronavirus is a liberal hoax. He said much of the news around coronavirus is a hoax, and it is. He said a lot of the news around how he’s dealt with coronavirus is a hoax, and it is.
>
> And you’re just proving his point.
@JPMcGlone Sure, you're right that he was saying about the media coverage of it, not coronavirus itself. But the implication was that the media is lying or exaggerating about covid, when they were actually reporting it accurately while he was telling egrious lies downplaying it. This made a lot of his followers not take it seriously, and a considerable chunk of the right wing does (or at least did) believe that the coronavirus was a conspiracy, and he certainly wasn't helping that cause. He has continued to spread misinformation about covid, which has created confusion (especially during the critical early stages). He has created a moronic cultural war about wearing masks, one of the few things on our power to control the spread with extensive evidence for its efficacy even coming from his own administration - he's gone back and forth on masks, but even in that clip of the debate, he's mocking and shaming people for taking precautions when any respectable leader would be encouraging that. He's continued to host large rallies where many of his supporters don't wear masks.
We do need peope to start taking this seriously so that another 100k Americans don't fucking die. Trump supporters are a major source of people flouting mask mandates / social distancing measures and propagating misinformation. I think this is the only thing that *might* change their behavior at this point. I don't wish ill upon him in the sense that I wish we could have achieved people taking it seriously through some other means, but if this is the way it has to be then so be it.
Donald Trump is literally the biggest source of covid misinofrmation: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/evanega-et-al-coronavirus-misinformation-submitted-07-23-20-1/080839ac0c22bca8/full.pdf