Message from @Egoy
Discord ID: 506465555201523714
and it cannot compete with a price based market economy
why would there be state intevantion under socialism? there are no representatives under socialism, it's direct democracy at its purest.
prices are the most direct and efficient way resources can be allocated
state intervention exists by way of democratic socialism. you even said this is a vehicle to attain "true socialism"
there will always be state intervention under these conditions
Well under socialism, "market forces" would be allocated by supercomputers, read Paul cockshott for that, he described it when he published papers about the socialist calculation debate
@Egoy under socialism, the state is under the whip of the people lol, so "state intervention" would be a baseless argument tbh, when the workers own the means of production
with 21st century technology, central planning is actually feasable (to a extent)
Well, at least you understand the basic concepts of socialism
thats nice we have socialists that want to engage in debate. its sorta sad thought itll probably never work out
discord socialists are okay
YouTube socialists are edgy elementary schoolers who think that the hammer and sickle is kewl
many people falsely associate it as a alternative
i mean if literally only technology is the barrier to full on socialism why hasnt any other coutnry done it?
if its so clear?
nordic model still employs markets. china has large privately own sectors
Well, socialism can only be established when the working class is educated enough about it or when the alienation of said class is reached to an extent, capitalism is a transitionary ideology and a global system as well, socialism is a global system
the transition to socialism is inevitable, no matter what the timescale is.
it's any ideology, like feudalism and capitalism, capitalism would fall when the circumstances call for it.
Cosma Shalizi has a good essay on why supercomputers wont be the only solution to figuring out the economic calculation problem
Well about this economic calculation, yes, I shall explain more about it
so in a capitalist society, there are free markets
in a hypothetical socialist economy, its done by Central planning.
computers would evaluate and input and output data, and thus relevant amounts of production is allocated to each sector of industry.
the free market, however successful, operates on the principles of profit and produces immense amounts of waste.
immense amounts of waste
[citation needed]
what citation lol?
So far as our current knowledge goes, no. Computing optimal prices turns out to have the same complexity as computing the optimal plan itself
Well, as I said, quantum computing nor linear programming existed during the time of the Soviet Union powerful enough to calculate economic and macroeconomic functions on a national level at that time.
this was written in 2012 by a statistics and computer science professor at Carnegie Mellon
The computational complexity formula I quoted above already allows for only needing to come close to the optimum. Worse, the complexity depends only very slowly, logarithmically, on the approximation to the optimum, so accepting a bit more slop buys us only a very slight savings in computation time. (The optimistic spin is that if we can do the calculations at all, we can come quite close to the optimum.) This route is blocked.
yeah maybe in a century when a supercomputer is able to calculate for every single nuance, every single preference then maybe socialism will be possible
calculation_debate.pdf
yes, that's why I said quantum computing makes it very possible
this pdf shows how it can be achieved through supercomputers
but just because a computer program can optimize the most efficient use of resources doesnt automatically mean thats what the market desires
theres a clear disconnect
there would be no market under central planning