Europe asked for our help and we provided it. they instigated it.

Agreed

We should have told them to pound sand.

There was absolutely no logical reason for getting involved.

Europe helped us after 9/11. We kinda had a debt of honor to repay.

But again, I agree removing Ghaddafi was dumb

Europe didn't do jack shit. UK did.

France did as well

And 'debt of honor' is bullshit. If Libya attacked them they could invoke Article V. But it wasn't about defense it was about imperialism.

I don't disagree that we should have told them no like Ike did in 1956 over Suez, but there was that honor debt thing

The US does have a tradition of saying no to France and Britain expeditionary desires

You want to repay a 'debt of honor', you do it yourself.

Don't use US military power to do it.

Again, I'm not really disagreeing with you. But someone used the "treason" word and I'm just pushing back against that. Dumb =/= treason.

And having dealt with French forces in Afghanistan I can tell you they did jack fucking shit.

Poles and Czechs did more in terms of actually risking their necks.

If so, Bush II needs to be charged too

Because Iraq in 2003 was DUMB

I'm trying to give Obama at least some credit by assuming malice rather than stupidity.

Again, he was doing what the American public elected him to do. Stop the slow but steady meatgrinder of American troops.

Was he elected to screw the US worse than W did?

People who wanted to keep the fight going voted for McCain. McCain lost by more than anyone in a two-way race since Bush I obliterated Dukakis.

The sectarian fighting was largely over due to the surge

Obama did what he believed was best given the mandate placed upon him in the election

Best for whom? Because it wasn't for the US.

Same with Bush II

Obama did what he believed to be best based on his worship of his anti-colonialist father.

Bush II and Obama both did DUMB things

Is that treasonous? No

presidents do dumb shit

period

Bush II acted on a family grudge. Is that treasonous? No.

And anti-American Presidents do visibly treasonous shit.

Obama disliked warmaking. He was cautious. It also led to unwise or even dumb decisions.

Obama disliked the country he was placed in charge of.

Trump hates free trade and was elected on a mandate that gives him a free hand. IMHO he's doing some dumb things. But he's doing the best he knows how.

Obama is as much a patriot as anyone else who has been in the presidency

The word 'treason' is emotionally loaded. Better to say that Obama did things that objectively hurt the interests of the United States due to his belief that western colonialism is the root of all evil in the world.

He probably believed that he was helping the US by somehow undoing the colonial past.

But what he was actually doing is making the world far less secure.

Oh, bullshit. Obama thought his mandate was to weaken the US.