It's the European equivalent to Iraq for the US

Oh, pshaw

Without US military support it would not have been possible for France to do anything substantive in Libya. We only got involved at Hillary's incessant urging. She wanted to shore up her credentials for her presidential run.

I could say the exact same thing about Trump

Obama's Iraq (Syria) was a lot worse than W's Iraq.

But the American electorate wanted out. If there was support in 2008 to keep large quantities of troops in Iraq then McCain would have won

So basically Hillary thought she'd increase her Presidential cred by unleashing the migrant crisis on Europe.

Don't blame Iraq on Obama. It was Bush II that went in with no reason other than a family grudge.

Europe made Libya happen

They reap when they sow

Europe could not possibly have done anything in Libya without US help. Europe lacks the military infrastructure.

I'll blame Obama for everything that happened in Iraq after 2009.

They do not have the aerial refueling capability.

Europe asked for our help and we provided it. they instigated it.

Agreed

We should have told them to pound sand.

There was absolutely no logical reason for getting involved.

Europe helped us after 9/11. We kinda had a debt of honor to repay.

But again, I agree removing Ghaddafi was dumb

Europe didn't do jack shit. UK did.

France did as well

And 'debt of honor' is bullshit. If Libya attacked them they could invoke Article V. But it wasn't about defense it was about imperialism.

I don't disagree that we should have told them no like Ike did in 1956 over Suez, but there was that honor debt thing

The US does have a tradition of saying no to France and Britain expeditionary desires

You want to repay a 'debt of honor', you do it yourself.

Don't use US military power to do it.

Again, I'm not really disagreeing with you. But someone used the "treason" word and I'm just pushing back against that. Dumb =/= treason.

And having dealt with French forces in Afghanistan I can tell you they did jack fucking shit.

Poles and Czechs did more in terms of actually risking their necks.

If so, Bush II needs to be charged too

Because Iraq in 2003 was DUMB

I'm trying to give Obama at least some credit by assuming malice rather than stupidity.

Again, he was doing what the American public elected him to do. Stop the slow but steady meatgrinder of American troops.

Was he elected to screw the US worse than W did?

People who wanted to keep the fight going voted for McCain. McCain lost by more than anyone in a two-way race since Bush I obliterated Dukakis.

The sectarian fighting was largely over due to the surge

Obama did what he believed was best given the mandate placed upon him in the election

Best for whom? Because it wasn't for the US.

Same with Bush II

Obama did what he believed to be best based on his worship of his anti-colonialist father.

Bush II and Obama both did DUMB things