He does seem to mindless reach for the sun

I'll stick to CA

@diversity_is_racism the thing I take from quantum physics is that it reaches down into representations and exposes them as such; revealing the world as an incomprehensible dark void of impulses.

If the particle, matter, whatever, doesn't appear in the form we perceive it until it's "observed" but this is the stuff we are made of, than that certainly implies the existence of something outside of that frame which is responsible. More specifically that there is something non-human doing the observation.

A quantum physicist friend of mine said that the observer effect was a misnomer and proffered "perturbation" instead. His view was such that the mere interaction of waveforms was enough to collapse them.

It didn't hit me until now however that Schopenhauer had said about how we are only conscious of something when it resists our will. So if these representations happen regardless of other humans around, the implication is that there is some discrete, multitudinous *will* at this level which, when bumping shoulders, gives rise to this very basic grade of existence we try to make sense out of using physics.

Got off track a bit. There is no god.

So anyway that perturbation is what Schopenhauer was describing from a different lense

It's cool shit

I'm incapable of taking that deeper so don't probe me bb

The conclusion wouldn't be that you can sprout tentacles out of your arm

We definitely experience the effect

so it shouldn't be discarded

it just means that phenomena are the result of shoulders bumping, more or less. Without such "perturbations" the world is indeterminate potential I guess. That doesn't really matter though.

Since we can't know the answer

We'll never get there

We could devote energy into how to live instead

ethics

It would hit an epistemological crisis all the same

"well fuck, how do you write a good tune."

yeah but that's not usually the result of theorizing

Theorizing is deconstructive

rationality that is

It's not a creative force

I don't know what you mean by his theorizing

It's literally how the understanding works: it breaks down the "whole" into parts to reason about it. A la categorization

You know all that wank music out there? The stuff that relies heavily on rational faculties as opposed to our non-rational ones? It doesn't leave a strong impression does it

That's the sort of shit that is derived from artistic theories

I don't think marlyin Manson's aspirations of being the next Alice Cooper using his library card to read occult literature to shock mommy is really a strong example.

Have you considered that needing to find novelty is driven by the collapse of that particular medium? They try to find something unique because they came in at a point at which everything which could be said has been said, in terms of diminishing returns? Also that the intellectualizing has removed all the mystery of the genre itself and with that, anything to explore.

wait dearth of skill? Dude, plenty of people who can't play for shit made good music

@diversity_is_racism yeah that's what I was saying minus idealism

But I took out observation

I'm still coming across good rap and electronic releases but it's easy to see that it takes more and more effort for only marginal returns.

intentionality

not really observation

Hence the perturbation

Being the clash of intentions

I disagree that there is anything to understand about "good" music.

Since what we experience is aesthetic

I think you underestimate the degree to which your inner model is dependent upon the cultural model you were born into

It's almost always the other way around and that's as true of music as it is of broader cultural trends. They always start out more visceral, irrational and maybe a bit simplistic and end up abstract, rational, ornate.

But

The key here

Is that the second "phase" is derived from the first

Look what people did in response to death metal? They went primitive as hell with black metal

What happened in rock after prog

punk came out

immediate experience

it's more than emotion isn't it

Nah the intellect is responsible for abstract concepts

An important feature of early artistic movements is that those who were around routinely attest to "not knowing what to call it, in those days"

So they lack anything grounded in abstract concepts like "black metal" or "punk"

Ergo, not intellectual

The intuition isn't a modeler

Arguably if something is direct/immediate, there is little use in creating a model of it

Impressions don't come from theorizing; in order to be called an impression, it must come from very little effort.

Forgot to address that

If you're saying that art comes from impressions, then I will take this in support of my position

cheers

it can't come from theorizing since a theory results from conscious thought

well then you mean something else by the word impression

how do you get an unformed thought out of engaging with formed thoughts and evidence ?

ostensibly, a theory is about something and results from conscious effort put into thinking about that something. You're telling me that by engaging with the thinking about something that we can get an idea about that something that's unrelated to the thinking?

because it's the fact of the matter

The point of an impression is that it's not a struggle to comprehend.

Dude it's in the definition

You said first you meant impression as an idea, albeit incomplete, unformed, etc. But just now you reference impression as an affect.

the context is shifting around

I'm stupid but not that stupid

I just don't think you modeled this correctly out of the concepts you're using

Shit happens

Let's surf

Eat tameles

tamales

Jesus

There is art theory though no?

People major in the shit anyway

People actually occupy their time thinking about that?

Hey man speak for yourself I'm all for banking regulations and having the market regulated by ethics (transcendental blah blah blahs)

Over centralization in education killed it. People did fine under the locally/state funded red brick school house deal.

It's no coincidence that American democracy and political discourse has been on the decline since the replacement of that education system with federal bureaucracy

The university is literally only a scholars guild

Public schooling sucks *now*

it was fine prior to the 50's

Sounds fine

the level of education that came out of American "class melting pot"public school as epitomized by the one room school house gave an education and literacy rate that was second to none of its time

yeah but you're going after the wrong shit

well a functional democracy requires literacy and a general education so yeah that makes sense

again that's because school districts are now subsets of government whereas before they were single purpose entities loosely supervised by the state, but managed by local voters.

It was literally taken out of the hands of people

whereas before single districts could set their own standards, their own textbooks, and so forth

you could replace people on the board who weren't doing well

And so forth

huh

What's the relevance of that

I don't know what you're talking about

what does that statement have to do with public education

are these slogans

Dude I don't get the relevance

there's always social pressure to conform to normative beliefs

isn't that what you right wingers want anyway?

because there is professional and home work to be done by the adults

I thought we were talking about public school before the university