I'm not always tracking with Fiamengo, but I think that video really describes the biggest and perhaps most important thing about feminist ideology

So much of feminist abuse of men and/or masculinity stems from this sort of false history and blood libel

And it doens't matter what one's argument is if it is based on a false premise

@lazzzycarrot(30) / senpai(40) the attempt at suicide rate does appear to be higher for women. However, actual suicides aren't just slightly more male, but closer to 3x more male (slightly more depending on age, slightly less if you stick to a more restrictive category like teen only).

Moreover, unlike what you may have heard, women attempt suicide only about 1.2x than men: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

The 2x figure is based on ER statistics

We are saying similar things

My point is that those statistics aren't really explainable by "men are somewhat better at actually comitting suicide"

It is a possible explanation, but not something that is close to being demonstrated

I think the data puts "actual fatal results are higher for men since they tend to take more serious routes guns etc" in a bit of perspective

It is, but that's reaching. Men continue to have similarly inflated suicide rates even in the absence of the most violent means (firearms)

I don't believe there is a serious source that establishes that as the explanatory factor for the severity of the difference

It is *a* reason, sure, but it really shouldn't be used to explain the problem as a whole

Yes, that is indeed consistent. But that leading to a higher rate doesn't explain the rate.

For instance, that study you cited showed nearly half of men and women who comitted suicide used the same method. Any difference in method literally cannot explain a 3x higher suicide rate in men

InsaneCaterpilla, unfortunately, I've looked at the data and that particular explanation for why women attempt suicide more doesn't really explain the data either

I can't prove that explanation is false

but I can't substantiate that explanation as being worthwhile either

So I don't think it is a proper way to approach the problem

"I can only speculate that women are more open to telling their problems" @lazzzycarrot(30) / senpai(40), I have a problem with that statement too, though my objection is considerably less data-driven. I **think** if you look into psychology, (though one has to be really careful with psychology studies as that is a feminist-dominated field) there is no good reason to suggest that men are really that worse at dealing with stress. Men and women are biologically different and handle stress differently in part because of this, and so those things are hard to directly compare. Rather, one *does* find that men are under (in many cases as a direct result of their own choices) more stress than women.

Yes, society's reaction to men being open about their problems is a significant issue

but I'm skeptical about that as being the biggest issue

I've read that study before so it has been a while

so I'm not entirely up to date on it

give me a sec, I just got to the point where it "explains" the gender paradox

haha

Alright

Some gems

"whereas the higher rate of suicidal death among men is probably associated with the choice of the method." -- remember, they are publishing a study that shows quite clearly that the choice of method cannot explain that higher rate even if men and women attempted suicide at equal rates

And just about all the other reasons given are listed, by this same study, as "theories" that may be consistent with data, but nothing substantitive

That's the most substantive statement it makes

Yes, it posits a social model that addresses gender conditioning

but isn't something substantive

and isn't presented as such

I'm saying that men *do* have a higher success rate than women when using the same method, and that difference is black-and-white

Method choice doesn't explain squat

the speculative writing in the paper of your link is pretty shallow, so it ought not to be used as a serious attempt at diagnosing the problem. Rather, it is an introductory one.

I think this one sentence "[Women] also tend to perceive problems as personal and seek help at health care institutions. The males usually see their distress as a result of economic or social problems, they deny that they have depression, and tend to abuse alcohol. ", which is based on data from another paper, is likely getting at something important, but I'd love to substantiate how important that is

You can compare those sorts of trends to what happens in NSSI (non-suicidal self-injury), which is very much a women's issue, and has some really interesting developmental breakpoints with regard to boys and girls.

"The findings are consistent with the assumption...that women have a lower desire to die than men"

The question is how much of the difference is fear based

and how much of it is strength of suicidal desire-based

I think that is at least a very significant part of the problem

There's no direct way to measure suicidal desire, in part because looking into the human heart (or brain) tends to provide you with a bunch of squishy material and little else. However, you can look at more specific categorical differences motivations between men and women. You can try to measure stress. You can ask whether suicide survivors were committing suicide based on loss of loved one or being left by one's SO, and how many were ostensibly economic in nature.

That sort of thing

I know that being left by a girlfriend/boyfriend is a disturbingly and surprisingly common motive

though I don't believe it is one of the top reasons

Some of these categories generate less suicidal desire than others, and are less easy to address by society.

..

It is hard to get good data on this from dead people though, so you have to use survivors as a proxy, which causes issues

I'm not so sure, most suicides don't appear to be planned at all. So while I do agree that it is likely for there to be piling up problems in a sense, for most suicides you're looking for a more acute explanation than chronic.

http://www.sprc.org/news/planned-impulsive-suicide-attempts

Yeah, its like 13% planned

@InsaneCaterpilla Eh. Survivors aren't a random sample. I feel pretty confident in postulating that people who have a greater desire for suicide tend to use more final methods.

Sure, you can ask survivors and that will give you good data. But you can woozle yourself too that way.

Yeah, I was thinking of that

There some people who clearly didn't have a last moment "oshit" moment and survived for sheer providence or coincidence

"It's that instant trigger which makes those pile of problems seem never ending...Mind needs constant motivation" <- so much yes.

Unfortunately, mental health professionals are often really, really bad at dealing with men, you can look into some of Elam's material for that

I think that's a great solution though

I think there were suicide survivor studies that asked "when did you make the decision and why" and often it was related to a really recent event (like getting dumped), and made hours prior to the act.

But I'd have to go through the actual sources for that number from the website

I haven't researched that as much as I'd like for this sort of discussion

@lazzzycarrot(30) / senpai(40) You can also look at the behavior of suicide survivors. While the risk of actually comitting suicide is greatly increased for those who have attempted in the past couple years, the numbers of those that actually do so remains low, below 5% IIRC

It's like 10% of people at some point in their lives decide life isn't worth living and act on it. 1% actually commit suicide, and some smaller number (0.1%?) legitimately hate life with a passion

except for the middle number, I haven't rigoursly confirmed the percentages

@John Wick And completely agreed with that

As I noted at the time, ER reports

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9qt24c/if_you_were_going_to_make_a_trifold_poster_board/e8d64br/?context=3

Some guy claimed that women actually don't attempt suicide more than men

I thought that was worth looking into

And I found that he was full of shit

But that what I thought was true (the 2x figure) was also false

Hrm, that reddit thread isn't as helpful as I thought it'd be

But anyways, that survey doesn't really have any potential flaws in its methodology, whereas the other ones that I found seemed more prone to double counting or self selection (very present with ER stuff, which selects for women who survive rather than men who don't).

Ah, okay. I'll go dig it up, but the summary was that they were counting people at the hospital. So you get your failed poisonings, but not people who jump from 8 stories

@InsaneCaterpilla https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6304a1.htm#tab27

There is a 2x figure

that is based on a survey

but it is only students

So it is quite possible I'm wrong on this

Here is a 2x ER study: Ghttps://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-015-0392-2

Yeah, the most common woozle for the 3x figure found here:https://save.org/about-suicide/suicide-facts/ appears to be from the CDC document here: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf, which shows closer to 2x for students, 3x was only for suicide attempts resulting in injury. Another cited one is here: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-depressed-patient-and-suicidal-patient-in-the-Chang-Gitlin/25c937bfe845f9f133d794b5f2c917df114ecf67

Whereas 1.2 comes from here https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

I remember finding the actual data from 2016 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health was difficult

because it is in this document: https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUH-DetTabs-2016/NSDUH-DetTabs-2016.pdf

which is thousands of pages...you can find it on page 2704

Found the right page for you there InsaneCaterpilla. You might also be able to find it in the non-detailed document.

which is somewhere

..

I totally agree about legalizing euthanasia

100%

But I'm on the /r/SanctionedSuicide train by principle

Not really about reducing suicide rate

I expect the suicide rate would increase. I think it *should* increase.

With the goal being reducing human suffering

..

I don't think suicide rates would drop.

I think that is more related to social alienation amoung other things, especially an inabillity to find meaning in a society that seems increasingly useless and self-destructive.

I don't think the problem of suicide is a failure to talk about problems. Having a better support structure (ie. reaction to cries for help) may help, but I think the effect will be relatively marginal.