religion

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2020-02-03 17:32:35 UTC

This is also the point of the Three Magi

2020-02-03 17:32:39 UTC

They converted mostly out of political reasons

2020-02-03 17:32:47 UTC

Just looking at Hungary for example

2020-02-03 17:32:53 UTC

The king wanted to convert

2020-02-03 17:33:02 UTC

And this resulted in a huge revolt

2020-02-03 17:33:19 UTC

Arians dropped Arianism for diplomatic reason

2020-02-03 17:33:37 UTC

That's certainly a part of it

2020-02-03 17:33:51 UTC

It's not that ppl were just convinced. It was a mixture of persuasion and other means

2020-02-03 17:34:05 UTC

Religious Realpolitik so to speak

2020-02-03 17:35:00 UTC

But to explain it by purely materialist means falls short, it seems

2020-02-03 17:36:44 UTC

Sure. There's no reason for say Constantine to convert to christianity in particular is an example

2020-02-03 17:37:17 UTC

He had other options and christians arguably weren't in a majority at that point

2020-02-03 17:37:41 UTC

And excludes the facts that even among the earliest church fathers the concept of the *Spermatakos Logos* existed. The idea that pagans held "seeds of the Word" that could bloom into fullness in the Church was baked into Christianity.

2020-02-03 17:39:34 UTC

Idk about that. Sure religions share themes about morality but the pagan view of virtue and the divine is different to the one in monotheism
Gods are seen as flawed and subordinate to things like fate and in Hinduism basically everything is subordinate to Dharma

2020-02-03 17:39:50 UTC

There certainly were monotheistic and monolatric analogues though

2020-02-03 17:41:02 UTC

The cult of Sol Invictus, Mithraism and the way Jupiter/Zeus was elevated above other gods. Zeus was rarely a patron deity of cities but rather somethign to swear an oth on

2020-02-03 17:41:22 UTC

There's an older example in Egypt with a monotheistic sun cult

2020-02-03 17:41:32 UTC

Yes, the Aten

2020-02-03 17:43:05 UTC

Interestingly enough, I learned that the disc and ray of light used to symbolize the Holy Spirit on Orthodox iconography is based off of the disc Atenaten used to symbolize the Aten.

2020-02-03 17:43:40 UTC

Didn't know that, very interesting

2020-02-03 17:44:08 UTC

Again, this reflects the fact that the early Church recognized that even unenlightened pagans could grasp glimpses of Christian Truth.

2020-02-03 17:44:17 UTC

Yeah, I was surprised too, when I heard it

2020-02-03 17:44:23 UTC

It's very fascinating

2020-02-03 17:45:31 UTC

Afaik it might've inspired the jews in Egypt

2020-02-03 17:47:05 UTC

Regardless there's also an interesting thing about Zeus and the like because tracing back the name to the original Indo-European head deity you get Dyeus Phter which just means sky father or god father

2020-02-03 17:48:30 UTC

Yeah

2020-02-03 17:50:06 UTC

There's also a very interesting parallel between the Chinese *Tao* and the Greek *Logos*

2020-02-03 17:52:40 UTC

And, as you mentioned yourself, there was this idea that even pagan gods were "flawed beings...governed by fate."

2020-02-03 17:54:03 UTC

Fate implies an overall structure and Telos to the Cosmos. Even if not personified as God, it does point the way to Him.

2020-02-03 17:57:20 UTC

Now this is not to make the Perennialist/New Age claim that somehow all religions are the same and "believe the same things" or some nonsense. A Norse pagans goal in life is very different from a Christians, or a Hindu's or even an Egyptian pagan.
The Christian belief is just that mankind cannot help but notice God and recognize Him when they sincerely seek Truth.

2020-02-03 18:12:56 UTC

I don't view it as a natural result, though I'll agree there's a tendency or at least was within religions to sometimes develop into monotheism

2020-02-03 18:13:29 UTC

I don't like inevitabilisms like the idea that dialectics will inevitably usher in communism or whatever

2020-02-03 18:14:22 UTC

I'm certainly biased because I'm not a christian though and don't share the same view of god

2020-02-03 18:32:22 UTC

Well it's certainly not inevitable

2020-02-03 18:33:29 UTC

It's not like some pagan religion will suddenly give up on their beliefs and a adopt Christianity out of nowhere, and certainly the reasons you listed above are part of it.

2020-02-03 18:36:23 UTC

It's not an inevitable process like Marx claimed was true for Communism or Nick Land's Hyper-racist Gigaccelerationist Techo-dystopian Anarcho-Archist Capitalist Helladise.

2020-02-03 18:37:39 UTC

It's just that the seeds are there- they just need to be nurtured by the Church to bloom into truly enlightened knowledge.

2020-02-03 18:41:19 UTC

I frankly want to know why pagans believe what they believe. On an intellectual level, what is so appealing?

2020-02-03 18:42:00 UTC

it's like Nietzsche++

2020-02-03 18:42:30 UTC

you get ammorality plus demons to give you power and no eternal punishment for doing it

2020-02-03 18:42:56 UTC

That or it's vitalism like Fr. Seraphim Rose suggested

2020-02-03 18:43:53 UTC

That people want something to be apart of that feels alive and that liberal secularism and staid/pozzed Protestantism doesn't provide it.

2020-02-03 18:44:15 UTC

yeah

2020-02-03 18:45:03 UTC

The problem is that many pagans don't reason there paganism to its logical conclusions. It's usualy a means to justify an end and not an end in itself as any religion should be.

2020-02-03 18:45:04 UTC

It also doesn't help that paganism secretly helps perpetuate the Promethean Man meme. Which Nietzsche and Evola helped perpetuate unwittingly.

2020-02-03 18:45:54 UTC

promethean man meme? is that like whig history

2020-02-03 18:46:47 UTC

Evola's biggest problem is his ego and imo it gets to often in the way of truth

2020-02-03 18:48:33 UTC

Promethean Man is the term that one based Senator used for the idea of the sovereign individual

2020-02-03 18:48:42 UTC

Anyway like someone said earlier, paganism is often used as a means to justify extreem tribalism/racialism

2020-02-03 18:49:05 UTC

hawley?

2020-02-03 18:50:25 UTC

First of all disagreeing about the nature of god and the emergence of the universe with christians is a good reason to look at alternate systems of belief. People who want to be amoral become wiccans or stay atheists etc.
Then there's the idea of Dharma which had a predecessor in the old IE religion which I very much like and identify with my views of good as an intangible ideal to strive for (which I had since my agnostic phase)
It's not so much about larping in Marvel costumes or necessarily worshipping any god in particular but first an foremost being in line with that intangible good to the best of my ability
Respecting gods, flawed as they are, I think is a good thing but not necessary for it

2020-02-03 18:50:54 UTC

Anyway I don't like the term pagan

2020-02-03 18:51:21 UTC

Wiccans are not in the same category as someone who is trying to be a good person

2020-02-03 18:51:46 UTC

I have to say that paganism on the internet is in a bad state because of bad apples like Varg

2020-02-03 18:52:33 UTC

People pick it up superficially and then don't bother to do the work to actually behave properly

2020-02-03 18:53:41 UTC

Regarding the racial aspect, yes it factors into it and it should if you're not someone who thinks in terms of universal salvation and whatnot

2020-02-03 18:53:50 UTC

@Skellington I think that's the guy.

2020-02-03 18:54:32 UTC

@Korin Dickman anyways what are your thoughts

2020-02-03 18:57:08 UTC

Wiccans are definitely a joke. They are about on the level of artificiality as Scientology if you look into the origins of that movement.
>There were witch cults all over Europe that believed these obviously new age hippy things
>No I don't have any really proof, stop asking.
>Avada cadava

2020-02-03 18:57:40 UTC

Pagans at least have something to work from.

2020-02-03 18:59:34 UTC

Well, it depends on the nature of power

2020-02-03 19:00:33 UTC

It's becoming readily apparent that secularism alone cannot support the complex and cancerous network of "rights" that Power creates contingently to justify their actions.

2020-02-03 19:00:41 UTC

Modern atheists and progressives represent actually what preceded Indo_European paganism

2020-02-03 19:01:00 UTC

The old matriarchal fertility cults of early European farmers

2020-02-03 19:01:17 UTC

So BAP claims

2020-02-03 19:02:50 UTC

If we're turning back to that it's only a question of time old paganism will supplant it too which is highly hierarchical, masculine and idealistic as far as we can tell or another potent meme will do the job

2020-02-03 19:02:54 UTC

Maybe islam idk

2020-02-03 19:03:16 UTC

I could see muslims taking over countries and shitlibs converting en masse to avoid paying Jizya

2020-02-03 19:04:00 UTC

I was just reading another conversation on this server where they theorized that Islam is just as succeptible to being absorbed into the ideological mold that is secular liberalism

2020-02-03 19:05:12 UTC

I don't actually think so. As German I've seen secularized muslims

2020-02-03 19:05:26 UTC

Secularized as in tainted by liberalism

2020-02-03 19:05:57 UTC

First gen guestworkers were pretty ok, behaved well etc.
2nd gen and onwards it only goes downhill

2020-02-03 19:06:12 UTC

They never really drop islam, jsut violate its principles

2020-02-03 19:06:32 UTC

Which also leads some of them to want to repent in a typically islamic way

2020-02-03 19:06:49 UTC

Either they become salafists and do nothing or they cause issues

2020-02-03 19:07:22 UTC

Hard to say

2020-02-03 19:07:23 UTC

In my city there's actually quite a number of salafists because Hamburg didn't want them to organize there

2020-02-03 19:07:37 UTC

You see them walking around from time to time

2020-02-03 19:07:46 UTC

In white robes with long beards

2020-02-03 19:08:23 UTC

I've also been to an Ahmadiyya mosque back in my school days

2020-02-03 19:08:26 UTC

It's not islam

2020-02-03 19:08:32 UTC

Islam has a history of being able to hijack liberal-backed uprisings

2020-02-03 19:08:45 UTC

Ahmadiyya?

2020-02-03 19:09:22 UTC

Yeah it's a really minor sect of muslims which jsut ignore the qur'an when they don't like it

2020-02-03 19:09:39 UTC

They had banners saying "Muhammad liberator of women"

2020-02-03 19:10:03 UTC

Don't have issues with apostacy (I asked the Imam)

2020-02-03 19:10:26 UTC

And they're banned from Mecca widely regarded as nonmuslims or apostates in islamic countries

2020-02-03 19:13:16 UTC

How common are they?

2020-02-03 19:13:26 UTC

Pretty rare

2020-02-03 19:13:36 UTC

I wouldn't be surprised if liberal power tries to patronize them

2020-02-03 19:13:43 UTC

They made up a chunk of the very earliest islamic presence in Germany

2020-02-03 19:13:57 UTC

Unitarians and homosex """churches""" were pretty rare originally too

2020-02-03 19:14:50 UTC

Sure but the christians always have a way out regarding interpretation and the bible not being literally the word of god

2020-02-03 19:15:01 UTC

The muslims treat the qur'an as infallible

2020-02-03 19:15:18 UTC

The literal word of god as delivered to Muahmmad by the archangel Gabriel

2020-02-03 19:16:11 UTC

The bible is more equivalent to the hadiths which are just a compilation of stories etc. about the life of Muhammad since he's deemed the perfect man

2020-02-03 19:16:42 UTC

However at least the hadiths are open to interpretation/questioning as they're not the literal word of god

2020-02-03 19:17:10 UTC

A muslim might argue that the hadiths which mention Muhammad being a pedophile aren't authentic or whatever for example

2020-02-03 19:17:26 UTC

But you can't do this with the qur'an

2020-02-03 19:17:53 UTC

If the qur'an say to kill apostates (which it does) there's no arguing about it

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