Message from @Mr. Nessel

Discord ID: 673954087850475520


2020-02-03 17:36:44 UTC  

Sure. There's no reason for say Constantine to convert to christianity in particular is an example

2020-02-03 17:37:17 UTC  

He had other options and christians arguably weren't in a majority at that point

2020-02-03 17:37:41 UTC  

And excludes the facts that even among the earliest church fathers the concept of the *Spermatakos Logos* existed. The idea that pagans held "seeds of the Word" that could bloom into fullness in the Church was baked into Christianity.

2020-02-03 17:39:34 UTC  

Idk about that. Sure religions share themes about morality but the pagan view of virtue and the divine is different to the one in monotheism
Gods are seen as flawed and subordinate to things like fate and in Hinduism basically everything is subordinate to Dharma

2020-02-03 17:39:50 UTC  

There certainly were monotheistic and monolatric analogues though

2020-02-03 17:41:02 UTC  

The cult of Sol Invictus, Mithraism and the way Jupiter/Zeus was elevated above other gods. Zeus was rarely a patron deity of cities but rather somethign to swear an oth on

2020-02-03 17:41:22 UTC  

There's an older example in Egypt with a monotheistic sun cult

2020-02-03 17:41:32 UTC  

Yes, the Aten

2020-02-03 17:43:05 UTC  

Interestingly enough, I learned that the disc and ray of light used to symbolize the Holy Spirit on Orthodox iconography is based off of the disc Atenaten used to symbolize the Aten.

2020-02-03 17:43:40 UTC  

Didn't know that, very interesting

2020-02-03 17:44:08 UTC  

Again, this reflects the fact that the early Church recognized that even unenlightened pagans could grasp glimpses of Christian Truth.

2020-02-03 17:44:17 UTC  

Yeah, I was surprised too, when I heard it

2020-02-03 17:44:23 UTC  

It's very fascinating

2020-02-03 17:45:31 UTC  

Afaik it might've inspired the jews in Egypt

2020-02-03 17:47:05 UTC  

Regardless there's also an interesting thing about Zeus and the like because tracing back the name to the original Indo-European head deity you get Dyeus Phter which just means sky father or god father

2020-02-03 17:48:30 UTC  

Yeah

2020-02-03 17:50:06 UTC  

There's also a very interesting parallel between the Chinese *Tao* and the Greek *Logos*

2020-02-03 17:52:40 UTC  

And, as you mentioned yourself, there was this idea that even pagan gods were "flawed beings...governed by fate."

2020-02-03 17:54:03 UTC  

Fate implies an overall structure and Telos to the Cosmos. Even if not personified as God, it does point the way to Him.

2020-02-03 17:57:20 UTC  

Now this is not to make the Perennialist/New Age claim that somehow all religions are the same and "believe the same things" or some nonsense. A Norse pagans goal in life is very different from a Christians, or a Hindu's or even an Egyptian pagan.
The Christian belief is just that mankind cannot help but notice God and recognize Him when they sincerely seek Truth.

2020-02-03 18:12:56 UTC  

I don't view it as a natural result, though I'll agree there's a tendency or at least was within religions to sometimes develop into monotheism

2020-02-03 18:13:29 UTC  

I don't like inevitabilisms like the idea that dialectics will inevitably usher in communism or whatever

2020-02-03 18:14:22 UTC  

I'm certainly biased because I'm not a christian though and don't share the same view of god

2020-02-03 18:32:22 UTC  

Well it's certainly not inevitable

2020-02-03 18:33:29 UTC  

It's not like some pagan religion will suddenly give up on their beliefs and a adopt Christianity out of nowhere, and certainly the reasons you listed above are part of it.

2020-02-03 18:36:23 UTC  

It's not an inevitable process like Marx claimed was true for Communism or Nick Land's Hyper-racist Gigaccelerationist Techo-dystopian Anarcho-Archist Capitalist Helladise.

2020-02-03 18:37:39 UTC  

It's just that the seeds are there- they just need to be nurtured by the Church to bloom into truly enlightened knowledge.

2020-02-03 18:41:19 UTC  

I frankly want to know why pagans believe what they believe. On an intellectual level, what is so appealing?

2020-02-03 18:42:00 UTC  

it's like Nietzsche++

2020-02-03 18:42:30 UTC  

you get ammorality plus demons to give you power and no eternal punishment for doing it

2020-02-03 18:42:56 UTC  

That or it's vitalism like Fr. Seraphim Rose suggested

2020-02-03 18:43:53 UTC  

That people want something to be apart of that feels alive and that liberal secularism and staid/pozzed Protestantism doesn't provide it.

2020-02-03 18:44:15 UTC  

yeah

2020-02-03 18:45:03 UTC  

The problem is that many pagans don't reason there paganism to its logical conclusions. It's usualy a means to justify an end and not an end in itself as any religion should be.

2020-02-03 18:45:04 UTC  

It also doesn't help that paganism secretly helps perpetuate the Promethean Man meme. Which Nietzsche and Evola helped perpetuate unwittingly.

2020-02-03 18:45:54 UTC  

promethean man meme? is that like whig history

2020-02-03 18:46:47 UTC  

Evola's biggest problem is his ego and imo it gets to often in the way of truth

2020-02-03 18:48:33 UTC  

Promethean Man is the term that one based Senator used for the idea of the sovereign individual

2020-02-03 18:48:42 UTC  

Anyway like someone said earlier, paganism is often used as a means to justify extreem tribalism/racialism

2020-02-03 18:49:05 UTC  

hawley?

2020-02-03 18:50:25 UTC  

First of all disagreeing about the nature of god and the emergence of the universe with christians is a good reason to look at alternate systems of belief. People who want to be amoral become wiccans or stay atheists etc.
Then there's the idea of Dharma which had a predecessor in the old IE religion which I very much like and identify with my views of good as an intangible ideal to strive for (which I had since my agnostic phase)
It's not so much about larping in Marvel costumes or necessarily worshipping any god in particular but first an foremost being in line with that intangible good to the best of my ability
Respecting gods, flawed as they are, I think is a good thing but not necessary for it