Message from @Eoppa

Discord ID: 690022264397365264


2020-03-19 02:08:12 UTC  

Most people would just say "God is unconprehensible" and leave it at that
Old me didnt leave it at that, i dig further and further

2020-03-19 02:09:23 UTC  

I then found myself confident enough to answer questions like "how does God's Omniscient will allow my Free-Will to work" and such

2020-03-19 02:09:55 UTC  

Oh hey did you know there's a way of thought that makes free will and determinism non-contradictory?

2020-03-19 02:10:13 UTC  

Can you tell me then?

2020-03-19 02:10:25 UTC  

Because i have my own case here

2020-03-19 02:11:02 UTC  

Oh yeah it's actually a very interesting argument

2020-03-19 02:11:45 UTC  

On a practical level we could say that the universe is ultimately deterministic, because everything has to have a cause, and for every cause there is always another cause until the first cause

2020-03-19 02:13:17 UTC  

But, when making decisions as humans, we do not feel those constraints; we are unable to. Every decision we make is influenced by our environment, our genetics, etc. But we are not the subject upon which all those factors are acting, we are the sum total of those influences, and we are in turn taking our actions as free beings.

2020-03-19 02:13:44 UTC  

Therefore this argument states that a man is not independent of the factors that influence him, he is in fact the sum total of those factors, and that is why he is free.

2020-03-19 02:15:18 UTC  

But yeah, there are some arguements that claim refute it
But the reason why i said "claim" because the refute can be refuted if we were to take the Freedom Action upon Situations arguement

2020-03-19 02:16:00 UTC  

I do not understand what you said

2020-03-19 02:16:08 UTC  

I personally find that argument rather unconvincing and similar to the Lockean explanation. If the causal laws that determine the flow of water are determining your actions it isn't free will imo.

2020-03-19 02:16:28 UTC  

@Eoppa Do you reject determinism?

2020-03-19 02:17:06 UTC  

Cause and Effect

2020-03-19 02:17:12 UTC  

Not necessarily, I define my causal laws that everything that is in act receives its act from itself or from another.

2020-03-19 02:17:25 UTC  

I've taken a Thomistic approach that I sort of developed myself

2020-03-19 02:19:18 UTC  

In that there are plenty of things in the world that are more qualia than a physical relation. In the same way God can cause our free will by causing it's existence, yet we maintain our own causal power that isn't necessarily determined by that initial cause by God.

2020-03-19 02:20:56 UTC  

Comparing God, Time itself and all that we could and could never thought of will never be anything big if it were to be presenced

2020-03-19 02:21:22 UTC  

<:sniff:591452013682753536>

2020-03-19 02:21:45 UTC  

@Eoppa There is something deeply unsettling about seeing a christian argue that God isn't the first cause of all things

2020-03-19 02:22:07 UTC  

That's not what I'm arguing, I'm rectifying a hard first cause with free will

2020-03-19 02:22:27 UTC  

You said that humans maintain causal power that is not determined by God

2020-03-19 02:22:27 UTC  

It's much more nuanced than I can fit into a paragraph

2020-03-19 02:22:33 UTC  

:/

2020-03-19 02:22:41 UTC  

It's what it reads like

2020-03-19 02:23:46 UTC  

I'm saying that free will is caused by God. From there the sort of 'qualia' if you could call it that of Free will is our choice. That's a horrible explanation, but it might convey the message a bit.

2020-03-19 02:24:32 UTC  

<:sniff:591452013682753536>

2020-03-19 02:25:28 UTC  

But you maintain that God does not cause the things that humans cause by their free will?

2020-03-19 02:25:34 UTC  

Think of a red object for example. When you cause something to be red, all these wavelengths and cones are all caused by the formal and material causes. But the actual qualia of red is something confined to the intellect.

2020-03-19 02:25:48 UTC  

I maintain God does not directly determine our choices

2020-03-19 02:25:55 UTC  

Except in a more molinist way

2020-03-19 02:26:14 UTC  

But you also maintain that God is the cause of all things because God caused free will?

2020-03-19 02:26:24 UTC  

God can interfere in our affairs but He does not always
Its not God's plan that a baby is aborted after all

2020-03-19 02:26:52 UTC  

Yes, our choices and actions are simply the result of our free will.

2020-03-19 02:27:01 UTC  

<:what:591451631590178846>

2020-03-19 02:27:04 UTC  

seems weak

2020-03-19 02:27:15 UTC  

I don't think so

2020-03-19 02:27:20 UTC  

Remember Adam and Eve?

2020-03-19 02:27:23 UTC  

<:what:591451631590178846>

2020-03-19 02:27:35 UTC  

Also I hate when you mention the names of all those big shot philosophers because I have no idea what they said

2020-03-19 02:27:43 UTC  

Even if I've read some of them