I'm saying that if we have any disagreement on society, literally any, that the 5 precepts can't determine who is right and who is wrong.

I'll butt out then and go back to my constitution

an atom is the best example of what i call a fundamental unit of info. that is, the smallest level of information you can break things down to, and still understand whats going on. if you break an atom, you cannot understand what is going on.

so to what Spider is saying now

no please don't bring up atoms is this so far beyond the scope of our disagreement 😑

I am not arguing that NML is a fleshed out set of rules for a society

its a skeleton

it might be a skeleton, but it isn't the skeleton

I can propose a skeleton which contradcits this skeleton, and we'll be left with nothing but our own tastes to reconcile between the two

so try it

how do you create a functioning society without using ANY of the precepts of NML

I mean live isn't civilization V, I can't just try it out on a test society.

I can live on my own and not obey the 5 precepts

and I won't necessarily be punished for doing so

not obeying the 5 precepts means you commit suicide

uh not necessarily

yes

literally by definition

I can disobey by not worshipping god

by not having children

by not educating children

Precept 1: Preserve Life

Okay, let's say I follow that one, but ignore the rest

so you are admitting that precept 1 is necessary

no it's not

but that one is more complicated to argue so I would rather start with another

let's say I decide not to have children

on a macro scale, 1 person not having children doesnt matter, but on a micro scale you will be a biological failure

uh wait we were talking about what I could do as an individual no?

both

I can't organize a society I don't have the influence.

again

theres no difference between the individual and the society

😑

is there a difference between me and you?

thats not what i mean and you know it

But both influence each other, yes?

well I have no idea what you mean now

because you're saying the individual and society are identical

i think you do and just refuse to admit you understand

and yet when I ask about my decisions as an individual, you say those are not the decisions of society!