we arent in an alternative world and you have absolutely no way of knowing that, thats purely speculative

The problem here is that we are comparing a group with hundreds of millions of members, to a group with only a few thousand. Logically there would be more examples of poor behavior from the vastly larger side, especially when you take into account Nolan's Law.

Talk about absolutely sexist and discriminatory laws feminists had made

we do have those examples- feminists opposing recognition f male rape victims in india, opposing equal conscription and equal pension ages, shutting down the MRM , etc

im doing just that right now on reddit

ill link my comment when its done

I am aware of those examples.

people DIE because of MR issues. when they spread disinformation that we are a hate group, they are HURTING people by hindering our efforts to help them

who do we hurt? whose rights do we try and take away?

there's no sensible comparison

Look, its 3 AM for me. I will reply to this in the morning, k?

night

ok

heres that comment https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/aa9ww8/why_we_criticize_and_yes_even_attack_feminism/ecq9hcb/

Seems like I missed something...

Are you familiar with the askfeminists subreddit?

nope

Although I can imagine quite much from the title, I suppose

it was a the subject of debate. I believe it to be a sub that operates with malicious and intentionally disingenuous motives

Feminism in general is humanism, concentrating on the subsection of women rising. It has a place, imho. When it begins to assume inherit evil in men (or certain types of women), that's when they hold no more water. Evil takes many forms, and we live in a world infested with evil...and some of that evil is very intelligent and deceitful.

Feminism is not humanism, men's rights is not humanism. Humanism is humanism. It doesn't need to be bastardized.

Imho, there was a time when the concept of feminism in general was a worthwhile thing, however the way it was applied to our society was uneven and destroyed a previous system of benefits/responsibility for each gender, and because of the unequal application from the outset society has deteriorated to the point where men are second class citizens

I’d still say there’s a need for women’s rights advocacy around the world today; there is definitely legitimate need. It’s just what political feminist organizations tend to do isn’t really in line with fairness or equality

1st wave feminism voting=good
2nd wave feminism jobs=good
3rd wave feminism more rights than men=Bad

Driving in Saudi Arabia, fair protection for victims of assault and abuse, etc

All true points

But that doesn’t mean men should go to prison without evidence, is all

@Indigo I normally try to present arguments and see the other's side, but your opening indicates you have no capacity for either. When you can't even agree on terminology and definitions, there is a problem, because such concepts are outside of you. You can't write the rules of a word to match your whim. Humanism is the general application of advancing the human race. It's wide and open. To say that specifically fighting for one aspect of humanism (female humans or male humans) does not fit under that umbrella is worrisome.

@Dan da Dad I think it's more of a case of saying that feminism doesn't fight for women's rights, but women's supremacy.

The dictionary definition of feminism is the belief that men and women are equal, but in feminisms practice this is not what is being done

Oh I love the debate of the application of feminism and humanism versus practice versus theory...it's just when he said "Feminism is not humanism, men's rights is not humanism. Humanism is humanism." That shows a distinct lack of word awareness that is difficult/impossible to debate with.

It concerns me that his definition is so limited that the practice of humanism does not count as humanism

Foundational definitions for an argument are important, imo

Oh well,
Feminism=Advocacy of WOMEN'S rights on the basis of equality of sexes.

Mens Rights likewise concerns with advocacy of the rights of men based on equality.

Humanism: system of thought attaching prime importance to human

Feminism and men's rights are not full humanism.
Feminism advocates for half of the humans while hurting the men.
If the men's rights movement is in place of feminism today, It will advocate for the rights of men and hurt women.(but nowhere as near as feminism hurts me. There's a lot of scientific literature about the empathy gap).

Both are incomplete ideologies concerning with half of humanism and ignores the rest.
Both will be bad if existing in a vaccum. Both are necessary for anything near equality to be reached.

I prefer to think of us as an offshoot of Egalitarianism that sees men's problems as the primary ones at the current time.

Obviously, our focus would shift if we needed to address another group

The understanding that there is a giant umbrella of human advancement, and that it can be broken down into subsections, is integral to humanism. At any given time in our history, we've gone through phases of advancement for Colonial Right, then Slavery/Freeman's Rights, then Soldier Rights, then Female Rights. The spotlight goes further back than that, and it will go further than that in our future. Thing is, there will always be one umbrella: Humanism. To spite a group denies that in theory, it is a human group, advancing human rights. Now, in PRACTICE, some take up arms with the concept in a damaging fashion. Corruption of humanism is rampant. We cannot forget that at the core, advancing human rights is good thing, even in small section, despite the perversions we see on the surface sometimes

If we could quantify rights, and women feel they could go higher, and they use what they perceive "Men's Rights" as a benchmark, then they are still, mathematically, advancing women, which is, overall, advancing humanity

A movement ceases to be humanism if it hurts the rest. Corrupted humanism is no longer humanism. It's as simple as that. And humanism is a lofty ideal.

It's more than semantics. We're all on the same team, just fighting different battles for the same war. We need to correctly identify allies

Corrupted humanism is not humanism, but Women's Rights, or Men's Rights, or Rights of those in Sex Work, or Rights of those going Hungry...those are all viable fights.

Anyone can pervert those fights for gain