@Kazimir Malevich thats a cop-opt statement (ironically)

Doesn't make it any less true.

I don’t think freedom can exist without security

I definitely don’t think liberalism is the cause however. Liberalism has been a consistent feature of the American project

@CronoSaturn

Your choices are confined by threat.

that just occurred to me actually

@CronoSaturn so.. faced by that threat... is there any option at all?

sorry, somthing seems missing, but im having a hard time even thinking of the right question to ask

Yes. Worst case theres the option to die or comply. As satre said you are free in that radical sense

But that is not a desirable degree of freedom

Freedom does not exist in the absence of order

Would it be the freedom to do whatever I wish with myself?

Yes I would give that up

Because the state must protect its citizens

so, to prevent this situation, we must restore order before it comes to this point

even if it has to protect you

from yourself

only in japan

Freedom requires it’s responsible use undoubtably but this is not exclusive to the citizen and the state has shown itself fully capable of betraying the citizens trust when given leeway to

Abortion is abhorrant for any reason. All these reasons child killers give to justify the disgusting practice (Life of the mother/rape/etc) are less than 1% of all abortions. The overwhelming reason we are killing babies is convienence. It is fucking vile.

Is it more abhorrent then subjecting the kid to a lifetime of being unwanted, poverty, neglect and poverty? We cannot force a parent to want their child and the impact of neglected children should not be forced upon everyone else. Regardless of the reason then, if someone thinks they should get an abortion then they’re probably right.

Yes but those who get abortions should be executed

If they’re just not going to be born at all we might as well just make the have it and send the kid into compulsory military service

I mean really why not, Id rather be force conscripted at birth than not be born at all

Those who get abortions tend not to have the greatest lives themselves and dont see it as a choice they’d prefer to make, rather one that by carelessness, poor planning or circumstance they’ve been forced into making. Executions dont bring justice here and it robs society of otherwise productive members who’ve made a poor choice.

Military service is an honour not a dumpster to deal with the dregs of society. It requires a willingness to volunteer for members to be effective at all and even then the modern battlefield is complex and requires advanced operations to be conducted in order to achieve the delivery of an effect, an extra body can be just as easily a liability as an asset here. Either the person is an effective member of society, in which case they can just as productively enter any field, or they arnt in which case we need to investigate how to provide them the tools and training they need to perform. The military is not the place to do the latter.

No, those children forced in would be trained to be career soldiers from birth

It’s not a labor camp it’s military service

It’s like social relief programs but the government actually gets something good out of it instead of just dumping money away

If anything they would be the best treated, most well trained soldiers, cultivated from birth to serve the fatherland

And who is doing that training? It’s not like state guardianship isn’t a thing, but it’s arm of rotating foster care is the most infamously poor way of raising children who will go on to be effective citizens. As it stands this system is largely incapable of producing citizens who can achieve the level of intellectual, physical and moral exertions that are required of our military members. In what way do you see extending and adding to this burden as in anyway capable of improving on this result?

```Those who get abortions tend not to have the greatest lives themselves and dont see it as a choice they’d prefer to make, rather one that by carelessness, poor planning or circumstance they’ve been forced into making. ```
It has nothing to do with planning and everything to do with hedonism, this is why sex before mariage is considered a sin.
```Executions dont bring justice here and it robs society of otherwise productive members who’ve made a poor choice.```
Productive? The only productive thing here to do was to give the child his life. She's not that productive even by your standars you stated above.
You misunderstand the nature of death penalty as it serves as a deterrent. You're not going to keep murdering your women and they are not going to abort children in spite of the penalty. What an absurd proposition.

```Sex before marriage is considered a sin```
Good stuff. It’s happened though and god hasnt seen to do much about it so I dont see why I should pay to enforce his designs.

```executions and justice```
As any small business owner will tell you the same work that can support one person really well cant support two people to anywhere near the same degree. Especially in the earlier parts of their lives. Once established theyre often able to have a few kids comfortably but as a teen or young adult theres no chance of the child receiving the support they need.
Your missing the point that abortion itself is a deterrent and its not something people want to do. The people who get knocked up and need abortions falsely believe that its not going to happen to them... until it does. The death penalty would only serve to drive abortions underground where women would be forced into riskier procedures which only magnify the harm or be forced into the bare minimum of effort into raising a child they will only come to resent.

I dont believe abortions are a good thing. I find them repulsive and wrong. I only find bringing a child into the world who cant be cared for as they should be even more repulsive

```Good stuff. It’s happened though and god hasnt seen to do much about it so I dont see why I should pay to enforce his designs.```
You missed the point. The teachings wheather you believe it or not teach that in a state of uncertainty (with marriage being a safe state of being) you shouldn't have sex, why? because it can lead to even graver sin like abortion or raising a defective offspring (parent missing).

```As any small business owner will tell you the same work that can support one person really well cant support two people to anywhere near the same degree. ```
I really don't care for the economic argument. It's been shown that people don't want to sacrifice their lifestyle to make room for the baby (giving up smoking, giving up late nights with friends, drinking etc). No one said it was easy and the family is usually there to help (extended family).

```I dont believe abortions are a good thing. I find them repulsive and wrong. I only find bringing a child into the world who cant be cared for as they should be even more repulsive ```
So? Keep the hedonistic lifestyle of the millenial and allow abortion even if it's wrong because not caring for a child is worse?

Preaching to the converted re: people shouldnt have unprotected sex outside of a stable relationship. I agree. Unfortunately people do dumb shit and we have to figure out what their decision space looks like that being done.

Given people dont want to and are shown to not make sacrifices for the baby isnt it therefore reasonable to trust that when someone says they dont want the child at all that they’re very likely to follow through on that? Extended family helping isnt sufficient when the actual parent is taking no responsibility at all.

Caring for a child while having an income insufficient to support it and whatever lifestyle the parent chooses to continue is not only wrong, its stupid. Expecting that giving birth to a child will suddenly cause them to become responsible and able where previously they were not is delusional and while its a depressing conclusion its also the best realistic outcome for abortion to be sought in those instances. I cannot force people to change or take care of their kids in the proper manner, knowing that, its better where the person feels as if they are unable to have that child they are able to seek an abortion

```Preaching to the converted re: people shouldnt have unprotected sex outside of a stable relationship. I agree. Unfortunately people do dumb shit and we have to figure out what their decision space looks like that being done.```
They shouldn't have sex at all outside a stable replationship. The excuse that people just do dumb shit is no excuse, they should know better and the psychology of self-acceptance is cancerous in that regard. It's a problem that needs to be addressed and not just shrug your shoulders and work around it.

```Given people dont want to and are shown to not make sacrifices for the baby isnt it therefore reasonable to trust that when someone says they dont want the child at all that they’re very likely to follow through on that? ```
It's like saying "I don't want to get drunk but I want to keep drinking". Eventually it's going to happen and what then? Just kill the kid?

```Caring for a child while having an income insufficient to support it and whatever lifestyle the parent chooses to continue is not only wrong, its stupid.```
Life is plagued with risks, raising a child is one of those and usually a worthwhile one.

```Expecting that giving birth to a child will suddenly cause them to become responsible and able where previously they were not is delusional and while its a depressing conclusion its also the best realistic outcome for abortion to be sought in those instances.```
Why do you punish the child for the parents shortcomings. How absurd is this? This is in no way a realistic option as you claim it to be . Highly immoral and wrong, I advise you to reexamine your wordview if this is somehow a reasonable compromise to you.

``` I cannot force people to change or take care of their kids in the proper manner```
Oh, yes you can.

```the excuse people do dumb shit is no excuse```
I agree. I’m not excusing the action. I just dont see a viable alternative.

```its like saying i dont want to get drunk but I want to keep drinking```
Yes it is. In the same way that the person is either going to get drunk or stop drinking the person will either stop making stupid choices and act responsibly or get an abortion. The third alternative is they take the third alternative which is even less responsible of having the child, keeping it and doing absolutely nothing for it. The most repugnant choice of all.

```life is plagued with risks```
And when entered into voluntarily you are right. Many people who decide to take care of the kids do make significant sacrifices in order to do so and grow up substantially because they have to. These arnt the people getting abortions however. The people getting abortions are unwilling to do that.

```you punish the child for the parents shortcomings```
No. The child cops a negative outcome due to the parents shortcomings I agree but crucially at this junction there are no happy endings and this is the least negative outcome. Unfortunately reality can be a harsh and nasty place where no good options exist and you are only left with the least bad. This is not reasonable, the reasonable thing to do would be to wrap it up or keep it in your pants. I cant and dont want to go around interrupting every fucking bunch of teens getting off and pry them apart to put a dommy on the guy. Failing that, we deal with the situation as is.

```yes you can force people to take care of their kids```
Cool. You’ll be able to fix the foster care system then and get back to me

***if*** there was some ability to ensure people were in a stable relationship before being able to conceive or able and willing to properly care for it id be open to the idea of implementing that

```No. The child cops a negative outcome due to the parents shortcomings I agree but crucially at this junction there are no happy endings and this is the least negative outcome.```

I'm just curious, do you resent your parents for not giving you the life you wanted? Why do you feel this incessant need to focus on the quality of life for the child, to give him the best of the best. Just a smooth sailing until he's 20? How about until he's 30. He must have everything. Not struggle on his own like you did or his parents did. Not learn how to live and operate in a society because that's also a struggle.

```Unfortunately reality can be a harsh and nasty place where no good options exist and you are only left with the least bad.```
No, killing an unborn child is not the least bad option.

@CronoSaturn yeah it's called religion