Message from @Gerçek
Discord ID: 533751997497868308
@Gerçek there are already significant measures to attempt reconciliation in the divorce process, if its unsuccessful and the person is still pushing for divorce it seems unrealistic that things can be patched up
Encouraging a culture where Marriage itself is seen as an Enterprise to create a Family and to raise kids i think is Healthy.
There are countless examples for people separating over the most selfish of reasons, "i want some change", "i wanted some space", entirely self serving without any regards to the Child i think is Toxic.
divorce is a lengthy and painful process where the person has to be pretty vehement and unco-operative towards looking at reconciliation, which also isnt really smiled on by the courts
Norms are not concsiously created for one part, and it does still not prove what you claim, norms are usually the result of necessity in an imediate situtaion and are often nothing more than a result of the material needs in the surrounding enviornment. People speculating about the resulut does not mean that they have any foresight. This is also the case of laws and morality, responses to imediate situations which we then makes a general law out of (the latter only applies to norms and morality as you can understand)
gercek its also unrealistic that the state can force people to care about their kids if they're so trivial as to purely want a divorce because they had a bad weekend
Im not talking about the State in any of this.
whatever measures the state could take to cure this are likely worse than the problem its trying to treat
thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though
It really isn't a separate conversation at all.. and the fact that there are people who think that these days tells you what the problem really is.
The issue with the rise in divorce rate is not just systemic but also Cultural.
I think I've said my piece. It's clear we won't see it the same way
Societies have gone to war over less
```thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though```
How does someone think that is honestly beyond me, you are thinking of children as separate from their parents. As if kids are detached from what goes on in the Family.
It's an absolutely bizarre way of thinking and calls into question the purpose of marriage and family building in the first place.
if a parent is going through a divorce proceeding without considering the kids clearly they consider themselves as seperate and i cant force my view onto them. I cant force people to be good parents and if they are determined in getting out i dont see any point in keeping a bad parent who hates being with their kids in that situation.
We live in a Society. @CronoSaturn
gamers rise up\
Yes you can. You can force people to change their behavior.
In fact they are doing that right now via financial incentives
People are divorcing more and marrying less.
i dont think its cost effective to try and pay people out to love their children and their are already significant financial incentives for marriage and kids
There's this thing called normative culture whereby people are able to remain within certain boundaries that ensure the survival of their Society and such that individuals live generally meaningful lives.
Now with his *you* don't have to *force* anybody.. a govt doesn't even come into the picture.
One important element of that is Family Building, and the societal shunning and shame associated with failure to do this, being Promiscuous or Unfaithful. We have slowly lost that in many important ways.. @CronoSaturn
I don't think it's cost effective for 50% of men who marry to pay alimony for life
which we agree on
and certainly people should be less slutty gercek
Here's a thought: punish people for bad behavior, and they will be less likely to do it. This is the basis of the justice system.
Punishment can actually include social shunning and shaming.
Psychological Punishment can be far more effective on several levels than Fines or some Jail time
Trying to fix marriage through material benefits in terms of more money to large extent I think are misguided.
Well, we used to use the law to support the traditional family, then we delegated most of the job to social pressure trusting that was sufficient to keep families intact, but now they've fucked the culture so bad that this broke down
Now both the state and the culture are untied against the family
I will agree with you on removal of the welfare state, child support benefits, community property laws, alimony etc
but to provide positive material benefits to families to stay together or have more kids is to misunderstand the problem to begin with
@Gerçek it doesn't have to be some draconian situation like if you are a bad wife we shoot you
The point is people respond to incentives be they financial or otherwise
We should set up society to promote and facilitate men and women forming long term partnerships and producing/raising children as a unit
i think by reforming divorce to be more equitable and a bit of a cultural swing as things normalise thats 90% of the way there
"reforming divorce to be more equitable" you see there's your first problem.
Divorce shouldn't be equitable. They should grant custody to the parent who's better capable to raise the children, and the other party shouldn't have to pay. Easy.