Yeah I can see that. Why put it in all the work and take on responsibility for no reward?

Yeah. To work with their hands, self-actualisation, and find meaning

I think it's important to remember that these dreams and goals that we're told to achieve were given to us by society. Wife, kids, house. That doesn't have anything to do with your birth, life or death.

I guess I fall in line with Sandman’s take on it

So if you believe that men are born to self-actualize and find meaning, why believe in "prolonged adolescence"? Are these immature men not doing those things?

Right, you’re free from society’s burdens and any expectations or demands they put on you. You can go your own way your own way, but I’m not one of the “enjoy the collapse” types

The seeds need to be planted today so trees can eventually grow.

If you dont plant the seeds society will rot

The idea of enjoying the collapse, I think,comes from the realization that we as men have no other choice. Do you believe there is something that can be done about the social state?

Right. I don’t mean jacking off to hentai when I say prelonged adolescence. I mean being 40 years old and doing nothing but sitting in front of the TV to watch football, when you could be sharpening your mind, your body, your willpower

Yes, but not by snapping my fingers. It comes with individuals making choices

What can an individual's choices eventually change about the state of society and why should they put their energy and interest into it?

Not much

Hopefully, it can result in liberation and standing up for ourselves. Choosing to walk away, go our own way, and break free from society’s chains. All of my favorite MGTOW youtubers are just individuals who make choices

Unless you rise to power

Are you as a man not free once you decide you are? Can you not free yourself simply by going your own way?

lol Also, are those guys sitting in front of the TV not more free than those who achieved all those goals previously mentioned?

Those goals that they didn't have until someone gave them to them?

Depends on the definition of freedom. Hedonism, nihilism, and consumerism are all slave masters in some people’s eyes

People will always be subjective with limitations to various definitions. What do you think about my questions personally?

Do you need society to change to be free individually?

They’re good questions, ones worth being asked

lol and answered

No, but it never hurts to find ways to make your life less shitty and a little bit more worth living. I’m kinda fatalistic about society, a lot of things are inevitable and are just the natural course of things, but I’d argue the objective best life would reject society as it is today. If it changes for the better, you don’t *need* to adapt for better or worse

And so it sounds like those "prolonged adolescent" 40 year old men have done just that. Who decides what their life should entail?

They do. So what's wrong with that?

Ultimately, it’s up to them. But answers, concepts, other ways of looking at things, etc. are staring them in the face, and it’s frustrating seeing all of it in motion to keep systems and cycles continuing

Could I also interject a question: are you using “slave morality” as a negative or derogatory term? You also lump hedonism, nihilism, and consumerism together as “slave masters”; how do you mean?

Well, arguably the system has been built on the backs of men who lived in traditional ways. Men who are going their own way ARE changing the system slowly.

Arguably, at this point, "prolonged adolescence" is what's needed to "change the world".

No, just in a Nietzschean sense of it. Good people, nice people, great people, etc. fall into it too. Hedonism, nihilism, and consumerism have you chasing things for fulfillment like cars, sex, anything for the dopamine. Something more like asceticism and examining your life will do you more good and frees you from yourself, if that makes sense. The passions, reason

Prolonged adolescence are traditional ways

I personally feel as though the only world worth changing is your own, and no society or system can largely influence that.

That’s kinda what I’ve been saying, but your world doesn’t exist in a vacuum

How is prolonged adolescence traditional?

High school sports, high school jokes, high school hanging out, parties on weekends, chasing girls and high school drama, it all continues into their 20s and 30s

They’re blue pilled, but not 4chan types. Their validation comes from popularity, what car they have, women, etc.

That's always been the case in society for the past century. The only difference is that it was balanced with the family structure, which was changed and ultimately removed with the rise of feminism. So why should men be concerned with bringing back family structure when it only was of the benefit of women? Without the family structure, only more freedom to self-actualize and find meaning are left for men. Those things that you believe are what men are born to do.

All men?

Yes.

Final answer.