also the thing about utilitarians reducing suffering on prisoners isnt really on the mark imo. For the most part countries are reducing their suffering not due to some utilitarian ideas but more due to more people considering prison as not punishment but as reform. A utilitarian if possible would put all the harshest punishments on to one prisoner as an example for deterrent if it meant everyone else was "good" (happy) as a way to minimize total suffering. (from what i think)

after all one of the big memes on utilitarians is that if someone kicks dust in to enough people's eyes its worth the death penalty for him

No

the reform model is utilitarian

they see "punishment" and law in general as a consequentialist control scheme

we put you in prison to contain you so you can't hurt others, and then try to reform you to reduce your suffering and the suffering you inflict

the justice model sees neither of these as important or valid

you did something wrong

so something bad should happen to you

end of rationale

the justice model is not consequentialist

it doesn't punish people because society is better if you do

or for any consequence at all

it does so because it's just

guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one then because i dont really see reform model as necessarily utilitarian because i think its possible that you could argue it from virtue ethics also

any consequentialist position is working under the utilitarian model

agree

reform is a consequentialist position

it is modeled as an input->action->output

the criminal is not the way we want him to be

we must change him to be the way we want him to be

this is utilitarian

but you could also argue that reform is virtueous as it can be seen as society giving people a second chance

in a sense a societal forgiveness

that is contrary to justice

<:mexShrug:495069030231703562>

why does this have mex in the beginning of it

idk

thats what the emote site named it

fixed to <:TohruShrug:495069030231703562>

<:TohruShrug:495069030231703562>

<:1488:489013578381262858>

<:bakabaka:495069026444115968>

i should retheme the server

its time

spoopy nationalism

@everyone You must submit to an ear measuring or be demoted to @filthyhuman

I submit to an ear measuring

i do not submit

i bow to no man but Grung