Thats right

Then if they are going to be autistic, you point out that then you will just carve or paint the image

Their misconception is that the commandment actually means "Don't make any graven images and call it God."

As in, the graven image itself is God.

Idolatry would be if we were to pray at a statue of Mary and say "This statue *is* Mary."

Which literally no apostolic does.

I think the purpose was to uplift the mind. As long as proto humans thought in terms of statuary as 'god' they would not be able to think abstractly.

true, i guess it's hard to place us in the period of pre christianity

so we kind of project our own meaning

where people actually thought the object was a god

That command is exactly Thou shalt have no other gods before me

You could as well complain when a child makes a drawing

Since he is making a "graven image"

People still think that objects are god. The jews thing MonEy-e is a god. That is why they worship it rather than the True God. When you stop thinking of the material realm your mind can focus on other things.

Exodus 20:4-6

**Exodus 20:4-6 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)**

```Dust


<4> Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. <5> Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: <6> And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. ```

So as you can see, it is ABSURD to understand it outside the context of idolatry

First, because it doesn't only refer to God, or even to heavenly things

Second, because it is precisely among the commandments against idolatry, to avoid idolatry

Third, because it is common sense

well that's the issue i always had with baptists themselves

they project their own feelings toward whatever scriptural quote they have

I'm pretty sure "Make to thyself" must have a more contextual meaning in Hebrew beyond "Just don't do it ever."

i guess you can see that play out after they fell into direct idolatry right afterwards

to show what god meant

thanks for the quick responses lol

people here are pretty on top of things

There was these meem out there comparing the greek words for 'icon' and 'idol'

Dont have it on me at work

send it to me if and when you can please, it will be put to good use

Might take a while but sure

Also this is more of a <#573460112614621204> topic

<#435529095166689310> is just sharing data

ah

I went out on a mercantile venture during the period of truce between me and the Messenger of Allah. While I was in Syria, the letter of the Messenger of Allah was handed over to Hiraql (Ceasar), the Emperor of Rome (who was on a visit to Jerusalem at that time). The letter was brought ... to Ceasar. On receiving the letter, he said: Is there anyone from the people of this man who thinks that he is a prophet. People said: Yes. So, I was called along with a few others from the Quraish. We were admitted to Hiraql and he seated usbefore him.

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He asked: Which of you has closer kinship with the man who thinks that he is a prophet? Abu Sufyan said: I. So they seated me in front of him and stated my companions behind me. Then, he called his interpreter and said to him: Tell them that I am going to ask this fellow about the man who thinks that he is a prophet. If he tells me a lie, then refute him. ... Ceasar said to his interpreter: Inquire from him about his ancestry, I said: He is of good ancestry among us. He asked: Has there been a king among his ancestors? I said: No. He asked: Did you accuse him of falsehood before he proclaimed his prophethood? I said: No. He asked: Who are his follower people of high status or low status? I said: (They are) of low status. He asked: Are they increasing in number or decreasing? I said. No. they are rather increasing. He asked: Does anyone give up his religion, being dissatisfied with it, after having embraced it? I said: No. He asked: Have you been at war with him? I said: Yes. He asked: How did you fare in that war? I said: The war between us and him has been wavering like a bucket, up at one turn and down at the other (i. e. the victory has been shared between us and him by turns). Sometimes he suffered loss at our hands and sometimes we suffered loss at his (hand). He asked: Has he (ever) violated his covenant? I said: No. but we have recently concluded a peace treaty with him for a petiod and we do not know what he is going to do about it. (Abu Sufyin said on oath that he could not interpolate in this dialogue anything from himself more than these words ) He asked: Did anyone make the proclamation (Of prophethood) before him? I said: No.

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Ceasar said to his interpreter: Tell him, I asked him about his ancestry and he had replied that he had the best ancestry. This is the case with Prophets; they are the descendants of the noblest among their people, he continued: I asked you if there had been a king among his ancestors. You said that there had been none. If there had been a king among his ancestors, I would have said that he was a man demanding his ancestral kingdom. I asked you about his followers whether they were people of high or low status, and you said that they were of rather low status. Such are the followers of the Prophets. I asked you whether you used to accuse him of falsehood before he proclaimed his prophethood, and you said that you did not. So I have understood that when he did not allow himself to tell a lie about the poeple, he would never go to the length of forging a falsehood about Allah. I asked you whether anyone renounced his religion being dissatisfied with it after he had embraced it, and you replied in the negative. Faith is like this when it enters the depth of the heart (it perpetuates them). I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You said they were increasing. Faith is like this until it reaches its consummation. I asked you whether you had been at war with him, and you replied that you had been and that the victory between you and him had been shared by turns, sometimes he suffering loss at your hand and sometimes you suffering lost at his. This is how the Prophets are tried before the final victory its theirs. I asked you whether he (ever) violated his covenant, and you said that he did not. This is how the Prophets behave. They never violate (their covenants). I asked you whether anyone before him had proclaimed the same thing, and you replied in the negative. I said: If anyone had made the same proclamation before, I would have thought that he was a man following what had been proclaimed before.

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(Then) he asked: What does he enjoin upon you? I said: He exhorts us to offer Salat, to pay Zakat, to show due regard to kinship and to practise chastity. He said: If what you have told about him is true, he is certainly a Prophet. I knew that he was to appear but I did not think that he would be from among you. If I knew that I would be able to reach him. I would love to meet him; and it I had been with him. I would have washed his feet (out of reverence). His dominion would certainly extend to this place which is under my feet.

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Then he called for the letter of the Messenger of Allah (may peaace be upon him) and read it. The letter ran as follows:" In the name of Allah, Most Gracious and Most Merciful. From Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, to Hiraql, the Emperor of the Romans. Peace be upon him who follows the guidance. After this, I extend to you the invitation to accept Islam. Embrace Islam and you will be safe. Accept Islam, God will give you double the reward. And if you turn away, upon you will be the sin of your subjects." O People of the Book, come to the word that is common between us that we should worship none other than Allah, should not ascribe any partner to Him and some of us should not take their fellows as Lords other than Allah. If they turn away, you should say that we testify to our being Muslims [iii. 64]." When he had finished the reading of the letter, noise and confused clamour was raise around him, and he ordered us to leave. Accordingly, we left. Addressing my companions, while we were coming out of the place, I said: Ibn Abu Kabsha (referring sarcastically to the Holy Prophet) has come to wield a great power. Lo! (even) the king of the Romans is afraid of him. I continued to believe that the authority of the Messenger of Allah would triumph until God imbued me with (the spirit of) Islam.

^ Islamic apology

Is islam considered to be part of Christianity now? Confused.