Is perfect obedience in your eyes, naturally achieved?

You are pretty much reducing what is said of Mary to the most mundane things, pretty much being a decent mother that doesn't kill her son. But then it makes no sense that so many outlandish things are said of her

And I don't expect you to say now "ok I'm convinced", but the claim that what we say is unsupported by Scripture is foolish. These, and many other things, are mentioned and studied by the Fathers of the Church, and when the involved dogmas are declared

And if you say that this causes scandal for some, I will also say that every single verse causes scandal for some. I have even seen people refusing to pay parking fines by saying that Christ already paid for our sins

For real..?

She's Jesus' mother, and he was as man as he is God, of course he exhalted her. I just think you're looking too lowly at those mundane things.

Scripture doesn't just mention "she was his mother", or "she was his fleshy receptable"

Yeah, being a Virgin and giving birth to Jesus is such a mundane thing

<:ohyou2:569616856105877505>

The way Mary is treated and described is in no way mundane

God isn't mundane either

Anyways, I’ll leave you two to it

Rather late here

Bye

Of course not, she was made extraordinary by her calling. David was a shepherd boy, a runt of mighty brothers, and just a kid playing a harp when he was annointed King. Mundanity to man means little in the eyes of God

Bye

<:bruh:569616839340982272>

Yes, she was made extraordinary because of it, and what is extraordinary is being full of grace and sinless

David doesn't have a role that is similar in the slighest way to Mary

What is extraordinary is giving birth to God.

Everything past that is icing

Yes, and that has extraordinary implications and consequences, which are outlined in the descriptions of Mary and how she is full of grace, blessed, crushing Satan's head. It is madness to understand this just as "you should feel lucky that you were near such an important person"

She wasn't just near him. She nursed him, she raised him, she taught him to walk and speak and cared for him when he grew weary or even sick. How much more extraordinary do you need to go to satisfy your criteria?

That is the "being near" I refered to. All those do not affect the nature of the person doing those things. Those don't make you full of grace and crushing Satan's head, just like the same isn't said of the apostles even though they followed him during his minister, ate with him, etc

The apostles were mostly dipshits until after the Resurrection

But it seems to be that all this rejection is rather base on the disgust towards places that have deified Mary more than actual conviction

Well, you can see how far just being near Christ and participating in his activities will get you

Mary was an extraordinary woman, that is clear, and a lot of this is I suppose reactionary, but I also do deeply resent the idea that the motherhood of Christ is insufficient to be considered a miraculous, unique gift and a mighty grace worthy of praise in itself.

One isn't just extraordinary by association.

One must remember what is the source, and cause of all those gifts, so that the praise that is given to them ultimately comes to that source which motivates it all. As I said, when ones considers, with common sense, all things, there is little scandal. But when one takes some thing separatedly, then there is infinite space for corruption and scandal even in the most important of revelations, like the woman I mentioned earlier

True

So as I said, I don't ask now that any of us concedes anything, but we must never let scandals affect us too much in our reaction to them

There's a Chesterton quote in here or two for a lot of these closing things, and I'm sure I'd pick a good one if I wasn't in a strange bed 800 miles from home right now

But pray for me, because those scandals both in your church and mine needle me relentessly and I always just come out more confused when I poke at them

We must accept that there will always be scandals over anything. Don't despair, because only in the Kingdom of God there will be true justice. Find an equilibrium that condemns them without letting doctrine be actually shaped by those scandals

Easier said than done, but one of these fights maybe my rib will finally break and I'll figure it out :*)

Eventually we become stronger

I think the goal for now is to just keep wrestling till the angel lets me know what's up, get in that stamina ..

@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ relevant to the things about baptism from before. I think you will like it, and will at least partially satisfy you regarding our position

http://newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article2
http://newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article9

Does Deuteronomy 23:2 conflict with God being all-merciful?

**Deuteronomy 23:2 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<2> Those born of an illicit union shall not be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. ```

Old covenant