As opposed to being caused by something else, or dependant, or created etc

That is precisely what it is.

When you think about the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament temples, there was nothing in there.

did Jews really wonder around the desert for 40 years?

how can someone be so stupid and not find his way out for 40 years?

and it wasn't like one person, but a whole bunch of them

@dankogrg God was punishing them

for being stupid?

It's almost like the only thing guiding them in the desert was God himself and when he stopped giving them directions they understood that if they tried pondering out they would probably be punished harder

It is also a lesson to us to accept our temporal punishment.

@dankogrg You people should actually read the Bible. They got to the land in no time. Some spies were sent to be witnesses of the promised land, but after seeing the nations there they became fearful even though God promised them protection, to the pint where they blamed him for getting them out of Egypt. The punishment is that not a single one of those who were taken out of Egypt (those who were in a census of combat-able men) would put a foot on the promised land except Joseph and I think someone else, who were the only spies who told the people to man up and follow God's instructions.

They knew where the land was, and some even tried to go there afterwards, but without God's guidance and protection they were quickly captured and killed by the nations there

i did read that part

but forgot

then the reminder is important nonetheless

Your point is that Pilate killed Christ. He didn't. He didn't dare to defend him further, but he didn't kill him. Paul, and all the Church fathers, always mention explicitely how it was the jews that killed Christ. I don't think there is a single one that blames Pilate, that seems to be a modern thing. Did roman soldiers execute the sentence? Yes, but it was jews who gave it. Pilate didn't like it, Pilate was clearly moved in a way by Christ's words.

For me, Pilate has always been a man with a good heart.

My point is not that Pilate killed Christ. You're totalizing. The point is Pilate played a role in killing Christ. A much smaller role than the Jews, but a role nonetheless

I cited the Creed to show that it is not simply a modern thing to condemn Pilate for the role he played.

Matthew 27:25

The washing of the hands

Matthew 27:24

Oh Pilate said he was innocent, guess I'll go home now

I'm familiar with the scripture, my guys

Btw this conversation has been moved from <#435529023666257932>, I'd recommend reading that first if you want to weigh in.

Luke 23:6-7

Trying to pass off the responsibility onto Herod

John 19:10-11

(quick note: how do I set the translation for it? I thought it was set to DR for everyone)

+setversion DRA

I think this is a great passage for our common ground. The Jews clearly had a "greater sin" in demanding Jesus' death and refusing to accept any other punishment. The use of this phrase, though, indicates a lesser sin on Pilate's part in bowing to the pressure and ordering the crucifixion, even though he finds no legal reason to punish Jesus.

+setversion DRA

Thanks

John 19:10-11

Uh-oh, I guess abortion is fine now guys