Message from @Orrbit

Discord ID: 572923747070246913


2019-04-30 23:08:43 UTC  

A lot of Luther's concerns were later addressed by the Catholic church proper

2019-04-30 23:09:01 UTC  

There is ground

2019-04-30 23:09:08 UTC  

No there isn't.

2019-04-30 23:09:13 UTC  

well, Luther died a heretic, in fact, a heresiarch

2019-04-30 23:09:20 UTC  

Accept the dogmas, or go to Hell (literally and figuratively).

2019-04-30 23:09:40 UTC  

fundamentally, if you go back to the basic most traditional protestant doctrines, it is still heresy

2019-04-30 23:09:46 UTC  

like not just schism, heresy

2019-04-30 23:10:03 UTC  

its in that name, protestant, you're protesting

2019-04-30 23:10:28 UTC  

Where would you say the prime points of heresy are? Beyond disagreement at least

2019-04-30 23:10:37 UTC  

Luther despised the Mass. I recall he referred to it as worse than a brothel. That in itself is totally uncompromisable heresy.

2019-04-30 23:10:52 UTC  

rejection of transubstantiation

2019-04-30 23:11:16 UTC  

I think that's not a fair asessment, he preserved the liturgy, he was speaking of the social aspect at the time

2019-04-30 23:11:26 UTC  

he preserved A liturgy which is not the mass

2019-04-30 23:11:34 UTC  

he hated the theology of the mass

2019-04-30 23:11:35 UTC  

No, he despised the Mass, and so did all of his students.

2019-04-30 23:11:53 UTC  

he understood liturgy, but he hated what the mass was and what was going on theologically

2019-04-30 23:12:10 UTC  

A Lutheran "priest" was executed in Rome for bursting in on a Mass and calling it the "whore of Babylon".

2019-04-30 23:12:34 UTC  

As far as I understand he also denied that priesthood leaves an indelible mark on the soul and said that a lay person could offer mass in an emergency

2019-04-30 23:12:59 UTC  

Said executed Lutheran spent a year with Robert fucking Belarmine, the greatest Church doctor of all time, and still refused to budge.

2019-04-30 23:14:10 UTC  

I guess transubstantiation has always been one of the prime points of contention, idk what's wrong witha lay person performing the mass in an emergency though. Doesn't seem in line with the nature of God to get hung up on that kind of detail in a situation where there is no other means

2019-04-30 23:14:25 UTC  

because a lay person is not able to transubstantiate

2019-04-30 23:14:47 UTC  

an ordained priest is ontologically different than a lay person

2019-04-30 23:14:54 UTC  

I thought that was Church doctrine, transubstantiation isn't a magic power it's the nature of the sacrament

2019-04-30 23:15:08 UTC  

yes, but who has the power to transubstantiate? Jesus

2019-04-30 23:15:13 UTC  

Transubstantiation is the greatest miracle in the world.

2019-04-30 23:15:22 UTC  

Can Jesus not work through a layman?

2019-04-30 23:15:28 UTC  

and Jesus delegated his priesthood to his apostles

2019-04-30 23:15:43 UTC  

He can, but a layman does not have the indelible mark of a priest.

2019-04-30 23:16:27 UTC  

But in an emergency, would that matter? I wouldn't see it as any different than David being given the bread of the host in the tabernacle to eat

2019-04-30 23:16:40 UTC  

What?

2019-04-30 23:16:57 UTC  

I eat the host at mass too

2019-04-30 23:17:27 UTC  

King David ate the bread from the Holy of Holies, which only the high priest was permitted to eat, because it was an emergency, and God let him

2019-04-30 23:17:30 UTC  

David was also a priest wasn't he?

2019-04-30 23:17:39 UTC  

No, he was king

2019-04-30 23:17:40 UTC  

Yeah I remember when the fathers spoke about priests being ontologically different lol

2019-04-30 23:17:50 UTC  

Yes, it would matter. I, a priest, cannot physically transubstantiate anything. I could say Mass every day of my life, and my "Communion" would be nothing more than bread and wine.

2019-04-30 23:17:53 UTC  

yeah he was king and priest as well am I wrong

2019-04-30 23:17:57 UTC  

That's right in there in Ignatius isn't it?

2019-04-30 23:18:08 UTC  

the priesthood has always been an exclusive role, ever since the levites

2019-04-30 23:18:28 UTC  

if anyone else wanted to offer the sacrifice they full on got killed by God

2019-04-30 23:18:42 UTC  

Oh, wait, was it Irenaeus? No, maybe it was in Ambrose? Oh wait...