Message from @Quarantine_Zone
Discord ID: 572924822464757791
because a lay person is not able to transubstantiate
an ordained priest is ontologically different than a lay person
I thought that was Church doctrine, transubstantiation isn't a magic power it's the nature of the sacrament
yes, but who has the power to transubstantiate? Jesus
Transubstantiation is the greatest miracle in the world.
Can Jesus not work through a layman?
and Jesus delegated his priesthood to his apostles
He can, but a layman does not have the indelible mark of a priest.
But in an emergency, would that matter? I wouldn't see it as any different than David being given the bread of the host in the tabernacle to eat
What?
I eat the host at mass too
King David ate the bread from the Holy of Holies, which only the high priest was permitted to eat, because it was an emergency, and God let him
David was also a priest wasn't he?
No, he was king
Yeah I remember when the fathers spoke about priests being ontologically different lol
Yes, it would matter. I, a priest, cannot physically transubstantiate anything. I could say Mass every day of my life, and my "Communion" would be nothing more than bread and wine.
yeah he was king and priest as well am I wrong
That's right in there in Ignatius isn't it?
the priesthood has always been an exclusive role, ever since the levites
if anyone else wanted to offer the sacrifice they full on got killed by God
He was not a priest
whats the point of having designated ordained priests if anyone can do it?
It's almost as if that idea isn't anywhere in the early church 😅
@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ I concede David was not a priest
Glad I can read the fathers honestly as a Lutheran and not insert doctrine where it doesn't exist lol
@Quarantine_Zone what's this, now?
If there is an ability for a priest to do it, they are meant to, but if the eurachrist is a necessary element of salvation and there is no priest, then the priest cannot be a 100% vital component, there must be some means of attaining the power of communion even if the last priest has died. That, or the eurachrist does not hold any inherent power.
Lol, the idea of an ontological difference b/w lay people and the ordained isn't in the early fathers ever at all
@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ The Eucharist, in theory, isn't *absolutely* necessary for salvation, though.
Yes, it's called a spiritual communion. God isn't contained within the confines of the sacrament, he can give the same grace to anyone whenever he wants
It is not the nature of God to condemn his people to eternal death because of lack of access to a miracle only certain people can perform
You don't go to Hell if you are physically unable to receive the Eucharist.
If I am deserted on a tropical island with no other humans, I won't go to Hell when I inevitably starve to death, just because I did not receive the Eucharist.
If you seriously think the early fathers taught that there is an ontological difference b/w pastors and lay-people then prove it to me. I've read them thoroughly and never seen such an idea
God does not expect us to achieve the impossible, @SUPER MALE VITALITY™.
It all just seems very arbitrary, and lacking the mark of good doctrine that is scriptural justification
bruh read the link I sent
The Cyprian quote says nothing of ontology
It speaks of doctrine and organizational unity