what they fought and died for was a perfectly valid ideal. The problem is, especially with a welfare state, it hasn't worked.

and I am not saying that people cant earn their right to vote (apart form a few examples). Unlike times past when it simply wasnt given to them at all

I'm not saying its fair either, though you can make the argument that it is. I'm simply saying the whole situation needs to be looked at from the ground up

I'm still conflicted as to how we've determined what crimes are egregious enough to disenfranchise felons from voting. Obviously there's some standard that needs to be met in order to keep that right.

Good point, @amlam with the comparison to Islam.

I think government needs to be flipped upside down. Local government affects you more than national government ever would. Yet hardly anybody ever turns up at townhalls to sort out local issues

Historically, in the US, the fact that only men had the right to vote was also based on the fact that only men could be drafted into war. And we've slowly been giving the right to vote to a larger demographic without any responsibility in exchange. So it's mostly thought experiments right now, I'm not willing to say that I advocate for any particular idea.

dying for an idea doesn't validate the idea or add to the quality of it.

Agreed. That was a good counter point @amlam raised 😃

I heard some fairly left leaning comedians (Ari Shaffir and Theo Vonn) mention they think states rights should make a comeback. The example was Cali wanting weed and Utah not wanting it. They made some points I think they thought were pretty original but were actually just basic American civics

Like how the cultures of the states aren’t similar enough to have one big federal government doing the same thing for every one. And if the stares could do what they wanted then people could just move to states they like

did anybody step in and tell them that is how the US government was designed? lol

if there's one thing I really hoped for with Trump being elected, it would be that lefties would suddenly see the utility of _federalism_

No but they were dead nuts on with basic American civics. It was refreshing to hear

I think people won’t understand the benefit to federalism until it’s actually taught in school

dude I thought the same @C1PHER . They way they were carrying on (and atill are) I thought they'd finally understand why Conservatives have been talking about limiting governments size for years, but they havent. If anything they have ramped up their need to centralise power

I mean, that's what the crazy states are doing with infant murder

yeah, it blows my mind that they still want so much control in the federal government when they clearly think a tyrant could take over at any second

@C1PHER instead they hope to win back all the power and hammer it in hard with Bernie or some other far-left socialist.

We just need the Right Guy^tm

@amlam They didn't just fight and die for an idea, they were forced to do so by their government (tho many went willingly). Part of that started adding the idea of "If they are fit to fight, they are fit to vote) and other saying. So the people decided that voting should no longer be the thing of those who rule over us, giving that Right to every person.

I'm never going to be on the side of taking that away from people because it gets misused or abused at times....
Creating a tiered voting system will only case less and less people to feel their voices are heard. That will create far more instability then we can account for.

We should kill all the people who don’t believe exactly what I believe. Then we will achieve utopia

@Shadows I completely agree

omfg I was just about to say "we should start up the gas chambers now then" rofl

I have never sent an invite from a channel, but I want my other half to meet Lash

A-are you sure?

Don’t worry Lash, she doesn’t bite unless you pay her well👹

I'm still waiting for your arguments in DM's Nic....

Oh duck shadow, sorry mate.
Adding a few bits every day...
Will just give you the WIP

some people dont deserve to have a voice quite honestly. Its uncomfortable to say but its true. Like a single mother for example. She will only ever vote for government to give her more money out of her own mistake. I cant honestly say that is what democracy should be about and it is improved by her having a vote in the matter.

@Lash-Games that's retarded

My mom was a single mother because my father abondoned us

"her mistake"

exceptions apply to everything

I don't like the government making sure broad judgments

I enjoy conversations about limited franchise

Should we have a panel that gets to vote on whether we get to vote?

did they get married? If so, his right to vote should be gone for life. If not then they wouldnt qualify to vote in the first place

"Sorry, you had a Facebook post that I didn't like. Vote permanently rejected."

I love handing *that* power out