each decisions is a risk with a cost

the ownere absorbs the risk that the worker does not

Some states are family owned (monarchy), others by everyone (democracy), others by an elite few (oligarchy)

the 'means of production' don't make productivity

only the APPLICATION Of those means to the CORRECT activity makes productivity

The state is different to a corporation. The state should represent an ideology. A core set of values. It should give its citizens part of their identity. It is not merely a business with special privileges and responsibilities.

the market aggregates these factors and gives a moment to moment feel for what the best allocation of those means are

I'm just saying there are pragmatic reasons to oppose communism and socialism, and those pragmatic reasons should be a bigger factor than any theoretical opposition. In applied theory, we could label the military a socialist enterprise (state owned), while true capitalism would mandate the privatization of the military and a reliance on mercenary companies.

We should focus less on the theoretical foundations, and more on pragmatic concerns.

planned economies cant' match this

agrreed

but your arguements are all theoretical

I want a republican ethnonationalist nazbol/ancap Norse Matriarchy

they don't address the real world need to allocate those means of production

regardless of who controls it

Pragmatism should be the default approach for handling economic realities.

Theory is useful, especially if you want to dive super deep into economics, but it has its limits and those limits are worth understanding. It's likely that no pure system would ever work, regardless of whether it's capitalist, socialist, or communist. Mixed systems, at the very least capitalism with some socialist elements (police, fire, military), seems to be the optimal approach.

this is true

The reason to avoid socialism, and communism, is that planned economies, don’t, can’t, have never, will never work. You cannot replace a bottom up free market with top down control. No individual, nor any group of elites, can ever replace the hive mind of *millions* of citizens working in their own self interest.

this is true

@Scale_e - I disagree. It's more that the LIKELIHOOD of a planned economy blowing up in your face is so great, that it's not worth risking at the present moment.

@Scale_e Its a scale of more genuine Nationalism and honesty I guess. Its kind of hard to describe because its kind of esoteric. As in, "NeoCons" are further away from the truth and controlled opposition essentially; They pretend like they are supposed to be the socially right wing ones and patriotic but they really aren't. Alt Lite is closer to being the real thing, Alt Right is the real thing.

It’s not “likely”. It’s inevitable.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/388053990954369027/600520870213058610/allahu.webm

it is very difficult to keep any gov honest

and free markets dont' require oversight

everything else does

A socialist/communist system with Alexandria Occasio Cortez, Ilham Omar, and Joe Biden at the top would be a fucking catastrophe. A technocratic system might be less catastrophic, but I still don't trust the technocratic elites that we have at the moment. Even they are a little underqualified, based on what I've seen.

and the ALt right is NOT the real thing

you ignore the numersous people that don't talk; they act

the 'alt-right' is just the intellectual puppets

the mouth piece

Our current level of affluence, of food surplus, of... everything.... Exists because of free markets.
If you go to socialism quickly. You will quickly end up starving millions.
If you go towards socialism gradually, slowly, and carefully... you will gradually, slowly, and carefully... end up starving millions.
You cannot erode that which gave us our wealth, without also eroding our wealth.

exactly

For socialism to work, you'd have to manage an unprecedented level of complexity with uniquely talented leaders that can be trusted to not fuck shit up.

I don't currently believe that such conditions exist, at least for the nation-state scale, unless you're maybe Iceland. It's possible that socialism might work for a small, highly educated country, but not for any of the larger ones.

people make the argument of how many people capitalism killed

what they forget is the population BEFORE capitalism

2 billion in 1900

4 billlion 1985

“Uniquely talented leaders”
These people do not exist.
These people can not exist.
You are asking a man to be a god and rule you.

almost 8 billion in 2019

enabled by capitalism

@ManAnimal In terms of genuine Nationalists who have the interests of the actual people of that nation in their best interests yes they are.
I think you need to listen to more then. Most people who go on about "such and such being a shill" or whatever just don't know enough. None of the biggest figures who identify as Alt Right (Spencer, Mike Enoch, Eric Striker, etc) are faking their beliefs I can promise you that.