Message from @ManAnimal
Discord ID: 600525370936262682
bill gates or steve jobs wouldn't have invented computers without individual incentives
But I mean like stalin socialism
@Vir It is a form of Socialism, but its non-Marxist socialism. Socialism doesn't have to be a bad word, its not Communism.
inevitaby people just do the min they can and get by
you can't force a person to create or improve if they don't beleive in the fairy tale
My point is that there are examples of syndicalism, communism, and socialism that nobody minds. Few people have an issue with it.
It's more when people try to scale it up, they usually do a shit job of it.
For every functional state owned utility, there are two more than are run like shit because political pandering becomes more critical to job promotion than qualification or capability.
but you can incentivize them based on what they want themselves which they can purchae with capital
i see where you are going but those are not the same
they aren't systems of economics
they are systems of cooperation
Socialism = State owns the means of production.
Communism = Socialism, but with less central control and less inequality (IE - Your manager's apartment is no bigger than yours)
it's more than that
that is just the theory
it's about the DECISION of allocation
what type of factory to build and when?
what to make?
@Ϻ14ᛟ But what does that scale represent? The positions you describe are completely different ideologies. It’s not a sliding scale of “less conservative” to “more conservative”.
The only possible rational behind that scale could be “The SJW types hate one end a little bit more than the other end.”
where to build it?
The state is just a means of social organization.
No different than a corporation, except in the scope it's allowed to operate. The state prevents others from hijacking certain state roles by means of socially sanctioned violence.
each decisions is a risk with a cost
Some states are family owned (monarchy), others by everyone (democracy), others by an elite few (oligarchy)
the 'means of production' don't make productivity
only the APPLICATION Of those means to the CORRECT activity makes productivity
The state is different to a corporation. The state should represent an ideology. A core set of values. It should give its citizens part of their identity. It is not merely a business with special privileges and responsibilities.
the market aggregates these factors and gives a moment to moment feel for what the best allocation of those means are
I'm just saying there are pragmatic reasons to oppose communism and socialism, and those pragmatic reasons should be a bigger factor than any theoretical opposition. In applied theory, we could label the military a socialist enterprise (state owned), while true capitalism would mandate the privatization of the military and a reliance on mercenary companies.
We should focus less on the theoretical foundations, and more on pragmatic concerns.
planned economies cant' match this
agrreed
but your arguements are all theoretical
I want a republican ethnonationalist nazbol/ancap Norse Matriarchy
they don't address the real world need to allocate those means of production
regardless of who controls it
Pragmatism should be the default approach for handling economic realities.
Theory is useful, especially if you want to dive super deep into economics, but it has its limits and those limits are worth understanding. It's likely that no pure system would ever work, regardless of whether it's capitalist, socialist, or communist. Mixed systems, at the very least capitalism with some socialist elements (police, fire, military), seems to be the optimal approach.
this is true
The reason to avoid socialism, and communism, is that planned economies, don’t, can’t, have never, will never work. You cannot replace a bottom up free market with top down control. No individual, nor any group of elites, can ever replace the hive mind of *millions* of citizens working in their own self interest.
this is true
@Scale_e - I disagree. It's more that the LIKELIHOOD of a planned economy blowing up in your face is so great, that it's not worth risking at the present moment.
@Scale_e Its a scale of more genuine Nationalism and honesty I guess. Its kind of hard to describe because its kind of esoteric. As in, "NeoCons" are further away from the truth and controlled opposition essentially; They pretend like they are supposed to be the socially right wing ones and patriotic but they really aren't. Alt Lite is closer to being the real thing, Alt Right is the real thing.
It’s not “likely”. It’s inevitable.