Message from @Weez

Discord ID: 620563000453103631


2019-09-09 10:02:52 UTC  

Not neccessarily egalitarian, but it could be of course

2019-09-09 10:03:22 UTC  

Sure, like anything really

2019-09-09 10:03:49 UTC  

It doesn’t HAVE to be egalitarian to be utilitarian.

2019-09-09 10:04:09 UTC  

But, generally those go together

2019-09-09 10:04:19 UTC  

And what I’d support.

2019-09-09 10:05:43 UTC  

Right, so that's one of the issues of utilitarianism. Both within and without the group of utilitarians (e.g. federalists), there's a fundamental disagreement about egalitarianism, and this causes many injustices

2019-09-09 10:06:56 UTC  

Some believe that a convergence to equality (whichever one) is good, some don't, and this divide questions the legitimacy of utilitarianism within its own governance

2019-09-09 10:07:35 UTC  

And then there are anti-utilitarians (like me) who question the legitimacy of the whole governance.
Reconciling all these groups on any level is impossible.

2019-09-09 10:09:02 UTC  

I agree, which is probably why we will just get slow doses of it over time.

2019-09-09 10:09:29 UTC  

Doses of what?

2019-09-09 10:09:56 UTC  

Egalitarianism

2019-09-09 10:10:30 UTC  

In my view, this is the way society is headed anyway.

2019-09-09 10:11:21 UTC  

It *seems* whether people disagree with egalitarianism or not, they’re slowly getting more of it.

2019-09-09 10:12:06 UTC  

For example, more and more countries are becoming socially liberal, something that pushes egalitarianism.

2019-09-09 10:12:22 UTC  

That seems impossible, there will always be those with most of the power, and those with virtually none

2019-09-09 10:13:19 UTC  

The argument for that is, the power difference can be lowered

2019-09-09 10:13:28 UTC  

Both socially and economically

2019-09-09 10:13:55 UTC  

And that’s what you see happening today. Government and parties attempting to do that.

2019-09-09 10:14:42 UTC  

It's a paradox, if you strive to create equality of power and you need power to do so, then you're creating a power imbalance

2019-09-09 10:15:11 UTC  

The harder you try to create a power equality, the less you can actually have it

2019-09-09 10:15:48 UTC  

The argument for that then would be, remove the barriers to getting that power. IE, allow people to run for office and government.

2019-09-09 10:16:12 UTC  

So even if there’s a power imbalance there, anyone could get that by running for office and getting elected by their peers.

2019-09-09 10:16:31 UTC  

That's too inefficient, no one would win

2019-09-09 10:16:54 UTC  

Why not? One offers something the other does not, something more beneficial to the voter.

2019-09-09 10:17:05 UTC  

It’s a free market of ideas. 😉

2019-09-09 10:17:08 UTC  

Who decides who has the best arguments?

2019-09-09 10:17:16 UTC  

The voters.

2019-09-09 10:17:28 UTC  

Then that's a power imbalance

2019-09-09 10:17:41 UTC  

How so? Everyone can vote equally?

2019-09-09 10:17:57 UTC  

Because the losers are not "morally wrong", they just lose

2019-09-09 10:18:20 UTC  

For example

2019-09-09 10:18:36 UTC  

It's the most simple example, but it also happens on a large scale unless tempered

2019-09-09 10:18:46 UTC  

Two wolves and a sheep vote on what's for dinner

2019-09-09 10:18:56 UTC  

Clearly the sheep is going to lose

2019-09-09 10:19:39 UTC  

This is the fundamental flaw of a democratic system, it doesn't change anything about a power imbalance, in fact it brings it out

2019-09-09 10:20:30 UTC  

I understand what you mean, you can use different methods of voting and election to achieve as much equality as possible

2019-09-09 10:20:59 UTC  

In my view, that would be better than the current system. Even if it’s not 100% perfect.

2019-09-09 10:21:28 UTC  

My goal is to minimise that inequality as much as possible.

2019-09-09 10:22:16 UTC  

Even if I don’t achieve 100% equality, it doesn’t matter. As long as we’re closer to it, that’s fine.

2019-09-09 10:22:34 UTC  

The way I see it, the solution to this problem lies in an anti-democratic approach

2019-09-09 10:22:57 UTC  

Democracy must be tempered, not absolute