Message from @Blebleh

Discord ID: 314885841669586954


2017-05-18 21:58:09 UTC  

The end goal is not communism? Socialism is not a transition state to utopia?

2017-05-18 21:58:21 UTC  

yes the end goal is communism

2017-05-18 21:58:25 UTC  

but first you need world socialism

2017-05-18 21:58:33 UTC  

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/308950154222895104/314884491246305280/bhc.gif

2017-05-18 21:58:35 UTC  

what did she mean by this

2017-05-18 21:59:16 UTC  

So you wish to consolidate the world under one state. What of those who do not wish for this?

2017-05-18 21:59:42 UTC  

no, the union is voluntary and only possible after world socialism

2017-05-18 22:00:38 UTC  

And do you see a corrupt neo-bourgeois run union of unwilling and brutally subverted states as 'world socialism'?

2017-05-18 22:01:23 UTC  

if they're bourgeois they can't be socialist

2017-05-18 22:01:55 UTC  

the bourgeoisie are the ones owning the means of production

2017-05-18 22:02:14 UTC  

they can be petit, big...

2017-05-18 22:02:26 UTC  

on the other side the proletariat, those who don't own them

2017-05-18 22:02:29 UTC  

And if the workers control the means of production are they not the bourgeois in place of the old?

2017-05-18 22:02:39 UTC  

Not to say the workers as the bourgeois is what I am criticizing

2017-05-18 22:02:44 UTC  

Quite the opposite really

2017-05-18 22:02:52 UTC  

no, because they can't exploit other workers with the means

2017-05-18 22:02:55 UTC  

since they're collectively owned not privately owned

2017-05-18 22:03:19 UTC  

Promising sovereignty through a representative union to the court is not my idea of a prole dictatorship

2017-05-18 22:03:37 UTC  

Bourgeois means to control the means of production

2017-05-18 22:03:46 UTC  

Have you not read Marx?

2017-05-18 22:03:54 UTC  

it is, dictatorship of the proletariat means the proletariat having power over the bourgoisie, at the contrary that the dictatorship of the capital

2017-05-18 22:04:12 UTC  

The collective becoming the bourgeois and eliminating their oppression is the very essence of communism

2017-05-18 22:04:19 UTC  

no

2017-05-18 22:04:22 UTC  

that would be distributism

2017-05-18 22:04:36 UTC  

the economy isn't privately owned

2017-05-18 22:04:57 UTC  

the means

2017-05-18 22:05:00 UTC  

however

2017-05-18 22:05:20 UTC  

the means of productions are collective, but personal property is for each worker

2017-05-18 22:05:26 UTC  

who has worked for it

2017-05-18 22:05:32 UTC  

And the worker is not the collective?

2017-05-18 22:05:33 UTC  

"to each according to his contribution" is socialism

2017-05-18 22:05:59 UTC  

the worker is part of the proletariat in capitalism

2017-05-18 22:06:09 UTC  

No the collective in the ideal communist society

2017-05-18 22:06:17 UTC  

yes

2017-05-18 22:06:25 UTC  

And there is no bourgeois?

2017-05-18 22:06:34 UTC  

in communism it's "to each according to his needs"

2017-05-18 22:06:45 UTC  

there isn't bourgeois in socialism or communism

2017-05-18 22:07:06 UTC  

Each according to his contribution sounds like a trade or merit system more than socialism

2017-05-18 22:07:18 UTC  

If there is no bourgeois then who controls production?

2017-05-18 22:07:43 UTC  

the state/the workers

2017-05-18 22:07:56 UTC  

If the workers are the proles then they do not control production