Message from @Deleted User

Discord ID: 331584765243293697


2017-07-03 23:52:05 UTC  

then it doesn't make sense to say you can bet nations and lives on a theory

2017-07-03 23:52:08 UTC  

My issue is that clearly marxist mindset isn't enough to describe reality and we have plenty of disciplines to supplement and change it but most people don't want to

2017-07-03 23:52:23 UTC  

sociology, psychology, complex economics, geopolitical dynamics etc

2017-07-03 23:52:59 UTC  

>then it doesn't make sense to say you can bet nations and lives on a theory
on weak theory

2017-07-03 23:53:06 UTC  

I thought I was clear on that

2017-07-03 23:53:20 UTC  

Obviously theory is all we have, everything is a theory, a model of reality

2017-07-03 23:53:22 UTC  

that's a givegn

2017-07-03 23:53:34 UTC  

we don't have the means to simulate all of universe

2017-07-03 23:53:59 UTC  

you are completely right that theories should be critizised, and that the best critizism often comes from other fields. In fact, I am ringht now reading a book by an anthropologist that heaviliy critizises adam smith

2017-07-03 23:55:00 UTC  

for how long have I been misspelling criticism

2017-07-03 23:55:02 UTC  

: o

2017-07-03 23:55:19 UTC  

When will you criticize marxism ;p

2017-07-03 23:55:39 UTC  

after I understand it

2017-07-03 23:55:41 UTC  

well

2017-07-03 23:56:05 UTC  

I think the "invisible hand that fixes everything" is as wishful as thinking that good will and communism will solve all problems

2017-07-03 23:56:25 UTC  

then it's a good thing that no-one said either

2017-07-03 23:56:27 UTC  

it's the part of the simple weak theories that try to trivialize reality I was trying to communicate

2017-07-03 23:57:42 UTC  

Just saying you implied that I said all theories are bad trivialization of reality.
The problem I think it's obvious, dogmatic ideological follwoing

2017-07-03 23:58:14 UTC  

We should use political systems as tools to ends not as ends themselves

2017-07-03 23:59:22 UTC  

I have ancom and commie friends and acquaintances but I never really talk about politics irl with them bc I have noticed how hostile they become the moment they are criticized by others

2017-07-03 23:59:28 UTC  

and that's a huge issue for me

2017-07-03 23:59:30 UTC  

and it's scary

2017-07-03 23:59:58 UTC  

a theory states that if X is the case then Y will happen. One can then think that Y is preferable and therefore try to make X be the case. However, you cant say whether or not the theory will be satisfactory or not, as you do when you said "I don't think marxist doctrine provides that"

2017-07-04 00:00:09 UTC  

yeah that's really annoying, but that is what ideology is

2017-07-04 00:00:40 UTC  

well you could be ideological and still be open minded?

2017-07-04 00:00:56 UTC  

ideology != dogmatic zealot

2017-07-04 00:01:19 UTC  

in the ordinary sense, yes. I regrettably used the more zizekian version of ideology

2017-07-04 00:02:06 UTC  

>One can then think that Y is preferable and therefore try to make X be the case. However, you cant say whether or not the theory will be satisfactory or not
why exactly do you mean by that?

2017-07-04 00:02:07 UTC  

ideology pretrays itselfs as being able to see the truth, which I argue is the main reason why people strongly defend ideology

2017-07-04 00:02:35 UTC  

@Deleted User my point is that you cannot blame theories, like you cannot prove or disprove them

2017-07-04 00:02:46 UTC  

you can blame what people make of the theory

2017-07-04 00:02:56 UTC  

I didn't blame the theories though

2017-07-04 00:03:11 UTC  

I really think you're misinterpreting me

2017-07-04 00:04:20 UTC  

no, but you were talking about whether marxism was good enough "to work for all people, with different mindsets and endure over time", but this is not what a theory can do

2017-07-04 00:04:36 UTC  

sorry if I might misread you again

2017-07-04 00:06:23 UTC  

hmm

2017-07-04 00:07:01 UTC  

It's not to SATISFY all people but to affect all people so they can stay within the system.
If you have an ancom society and a fraction of that goes rogue and seizes everything because the theory didn't anticipated power-hungry people then the theory needs revision, which means it didn't work for all people (not satisfy them)

2017-07-04 00:07:35 UTC  

I don't see why would you disagree with that

2017-07-04 00:08:19 UTC  

Again my problem is that there is always a huge chunk of people that don't rework a theory

2017-07-04 00:14:29 UTC  

what you do when you say that ancom theory doesn't account for some part of reality, you say that it is not applicable to reality. It is the society wish wasn't able "to work for all people, with different mindsets and endure over time", not the theory. Now I see hoe these two kinda wash together with ancom, but this doesn't happen in fx USSR. People in russia used marxist theory to propose a system. It wasn't marxism that was implemented, since this doesn't really make much sense. I am also kinda afraid that we are talking past eachother, and this isn't really that important a topic since we probably agree that indeed theories should be reworked/expanded upon/whatever.

2017-07-04 00:15:16 UTC  

also, I don't think ancom has the problem you stated, but you shouldn't ask me about that. If you wanna know you should ask an ancom or better yet read The Conquest of Bread