@AaronMk Typically American response. But you are bound to butt heads with other Leftists, like Marxists, who are strict materialists. I didn't even ask you, what are your politics?

@Deleted User Once a fairly middle of the road liberal (though I was also so young it would be more accurate to say I didn't have any politics then) who drifted further left through the George Bush years. Flirted with the likes of Tankies back in '08 or '09. By the time this last election went through I threw in the towell and bailed out into Left-Libertarianism. I've jokingly said I swim the waters between Anarcho-Mutualism to Bolshevism. I don't entirely rule out armed insurrection, it's just a question of if there's anyone who has the merit of making sure it's done right and won't let it degenerate.

I am extremely weary of armed conflict, especially in this day and age. The falling of one regime still plays into the hands of imperialism and capital interests. Destroying and rebuilding is a good way to spend capital and make money, and being able to fund reactionary thugs is a key part of this war profit strategy.

It's not totally unworkable, but it's a big role of the dice for the future. The American revolution could have gone a completely different way early on. If Hamilton's federalists had completely won out over Jefferson's Republicans in the early days and the party didn't have a total meltdown after Hamilton's death then there may have been a class of political aristocracy like in Venice that could have steered the country down a path where we'd have a Doge-like president.

And if all this pissing about of foreign interference in the elections is any indication it's not unlikely the non-revolutionary way either, it's just a fact of life right now, imo. One way or another someone'll pay someone some sugar daddy money.

Muslims. for example, have an allegiance to God first, which transcends nations. The working class need to do the same. So that, even when you fight and destroy, it increases the struggle and brings it to a wider view. Restricting revolutions to certain borders is a fatal error and plays into the chessboard strategy of capitalists.

Nationalism is a trap.

T'is. Though how we're going to get the working class in America here for instance to believe that when the oppinion is that Mexico and China is stealing jobs is going to be the challenge. There'd need to be a new enemy made up to inspire them.

lol

Again, this is a cynical idea, 'invent a new enemy to inspire them'. This is what Fascism does. It does not educate, is distracts.

It is an off-handed remark. But when all what we see is "Made in China/Mexico" on all our products then the mentality is already externalized. I don't have an answer to shift this internally, like getting them to think with class conciousness. It'd be a long trial and error to shift that way of thinking.

Maybe though, setting up something they can control and see the product of their own labor on their own resources and time in their own community would help to shift the mind-set from one without an external foe to more, "We need more of this shit, this shit right here". So all they need is to be told, "You can have more this shit, and I/we are willing to fight for it if you are willing to join in".

It'd be like an extension of the locally sourced trend here; even if that tends to be something the middle-class likes to worry more about than the working poor who just need cheap anything to keep their head above water.

I feel this is too artificial. The economic experience is firmly rooted in marketing and manipulation. It is a cynical business. Even the opposite, 'fresh, local produce' is a marketing meme. It may very well have good effects on consciousness, but it is still in the playing field of consumer memes. Another way to approach this, is to bring the religious experience of people and bring the importance of it back into the day to day society. No more cynicism, but instead increasing the importance in peoples minds, like it has been in the past. These strong convictions can override the market ideology and trappings.

I honestly wouldn't mind bring some good-old community faith back into the thing. Something to simply emphasize being together as an entire unit.

That's exactly right. It gives people a solid foundation that does not depend on consumer life. People are like ghosts nowadays and they need to replant their spiritual roots so that they can navigate the world again with a keen eye.

And like coming back to your using Islam initially, something on that scale can bring people of many nations together; and if it's something that advocates everyone taking up the same language like Latin or Arabic to wholly understand or convey the faith than it can break down national borders. Malcolm X's hate towards white people was dissolved when he first went on Hajj and met plenty of white Muslims that he learned were cool dudes, so they went to see the pyramids and shit together on their pilgrimage. And when he came home he was of a new mind.

Like-wise in Albania I think it is, there's strong inter-faith relations between the Christians and Muslims. There's a festival tradition there where a cross is thrown into a river and people are challenged to dive and retrieve it, and Muslims even join in on the fun. This would be useful to look into so the lines between religions can be blurred and it all doesn't fall apart on an inter-faith crusade.

Religion is an extension of community. But like race, I don't think this is necessary something that has to be blurred. Conflict is not always a good thing. The most violent religions never last very long. Like Roman Paganism or Fascist Mythology. The longest lasting religions need to add stability to communities, especially externally when dealing with others, or else it will cease to exist. All major religions which are 1000 years or more old, have proven some degree of merit in humanity existence.

And exploitation is a secular phenomenon of class, not based in religion.

Indeed, though use of religion - like race - can support nationalist tendencies. So moving ahead it would need to be considered how it can transcend borders and how the "our race/nationality are god's people!" preachers can be cut off and outplayed so religious nationalism can be dissolved.

Which I guess comes back around to how the bourgiese can be removed from power and an international proletarian "state" can assume the helm.

Nationalist cults are sects, they can never dominate the mainstream. And again, they are too inward looking and outwardly aggressive. Cults of personality and religion are not stable.

So in the end, basically wait for the cult leader to die before moving ahead?

That's the worst case scenario. The early church just did that. They were pacifists and just waited for Rome to kill itself.

What'd I miss?

@Deleted User tfw the turning the other cheek is too strong

Sometimes doing nothing is the best cause of action. But in regards to religious people, they can afford to wait, because they have higher concerns than simple material gains in the short term.

The economic hamster wheel can sometimes go off the cliff.

The question in comparative religion is an interesting one though. Certainly, you should go with whatever religion you feel draws you the closet. But for a few people like myself, I am drawn to difference ones at the same time, and this feels like a problem. I don't know who I am. This may be a more common symptom in our time than I realise, though.

Being 'born into a religion' is not a curse, it is not an indoctrination, it is a practical favour. My parents were not very religious.

Buddhism is nice because it's applicable to about anything. It's very syncretic.

God or the concept of a God isn't important, but it isn't totally out of the question. It's adopted into itself and been adopted into plenty of religions in the far-east.

The Eastern religions are truly unlike Abrahamic ones. It is possible to be Buddhist plus anything else. Like Tengriism. You can be many things. But there is always the question of, or at least that is demanded by some, that there is one true religion and you have to decide which one it is. This tension is the most unsettling part of religious seeking.

I don't know about elsewhere, but around here the issue is more like going from church to church to find the one most comfortable or appealing to you as a person. I don't know what sort of options are avaible elsewhere. Though, at the same time around here the choice all boils down to varying degress of Christianity and it's tedious or difficult to duck into a congregation of another faith, I think there's one Buddhist monestary around here but I've never found it.

Then there's the people who drank the dogma really deep so might feel averse to someone claiming to being a Buddhist-Tengriist-Christian in their midst. It'd feel like some adhoc paganism to them and they'll be compelled to force Jesus on you.

I have to duck out a for a little bit. I will be back in 30 minutes or so if you still want to chat. This is very interesting discussion.

I literally got a pamphlet while in town one day by some random missionary that was a short comic about how we're all sinful and we need to read the Bible and live by it word-for-word and pray to Jesus so he can help absolve us of our sins when we die.

I'll probably go and play vidya games so I may be busy doing other shit by the time you do come back.

Thanks for the chat, then. I know what you mean about church shopping. But more on that next time. I hope you level up or kill the boss or whatever. Have fun.

Thank you too, and you're welcome.