socialism is the ownership of the means of production by the working class

Capitalism in the First Place®, never a good idea if you want ancient museums of natural history like the entire continent of Africa to be free from exploitation.

capitalism is the theft of surplus value from the owners of capital

the two are mutually exclusive

@Deleted User no, that's communism, different than socialism.

don't be a stupid american

I've actually met people who think "surplus value" is a myth

A CEO making a hundred million a year is not a myth.

the distinction between communism and socialism is very vague and post-dates Marx

what you're thinking of is a welfare state, not socialism

I'm simply saying that Socialism is not having the means of production in the hands of the people, that's communism.

social policies are not the same as socialism

No, that is socialism.

Communism is a stateless classless society characterized by that phenomenon.

With the means of production being in the hands of the people who operate it.

Yes.

Communism is socialistic.

Socialism is not that.

Yes.

socialism is that

it is not a welfare state

Yeah you're thinking of social democracy

Which I don't mind, but it's not socialism.

It's better than capitalism because it forces capital to "care" more.

Agreed, it's not a welfare state, but it also does not abolish classes or put the means of production in the hands of the workers.

Puts people in a better position in their lives.

socialism is the abolition of classes and the means of production in the hands of the workers

That's communism

but in the Leninist narrative, the distinction is if there is a state or not

Communism involves abolition of the state.

Nothing short of it and it's not communism.

If you still have a state, you are not communist.

You're just commies.

Socialism has a state.

It might.

There is stateless socialism.

The very notion of the Social Contract is Statist.

Not at all.

Yes, it's called communism, if there is no state and is socialist.

But I believe in democracy.

Well... there isn't stateless socialism.