`Would those virtues be good if God hadn't demonstrated that they were good?`
maybe, but how would we know if not for god?

in the christcuck narrative, we have god to thank for our moral senses, us being made in god's image and all that

well what is God

"christcuck" is not an argument, not every Christian is a pope licking black people's shoes

kek

So let's say you're right and either logic or theology can prove everything god says is true

the pope is evil, the vatican has always been evil

no give me an answer to what is actually God

otherwise you'll just reject everything as nonsense

I can't tell you what God is because I don't believe in a god

No give me an answer as to which principle goes beyond time

I don't care about your belief

Your faith doesn't matter whatsoever

Time being linear could even just be a limit of our perception. The nature of the universe could trancend time and we wouldn't know

ye but what transcends time

Inherent principles of matter and energy

one thing we would know and which would be legitimate through circular reasoning

logic/logos

I don't agree with anything being legitimate through circular reasoning

how is logic legitimate other than through logic

if you do not agree with logic, you're putting your own worldview outside of it

Logic isn't legitimate, it's useful. You need to make base assumptions about the universe to assume it is delivering something approximating truth

Like assuming that what we gather with our senses is real

I think I should just tell my mum that a friend has invited me to a BBQ in a Manchester. That's the only option that would not end with my mum tearing me a new asshole.

We can't prove that, but our logic systems hinge on it when we make claims about the world around us

anyhow back to the original discussion
i certainly can see how one would think that the nonreligious aren't moral, if you were

and vice versa actually, lot of nonreligious think that religious people are immoral

so truth and logic do not exist, it's just a tool

I mean I'm totally willing to accept that religious people can be moral

I'm still here and looking for answers to what I should do about the Tommy BBQ.

@Sock you're just looking at short snippets of their behaviour though, in a secular society

>logic isn't legitimate
>truth can only be approximate
>"I'm willing to accept that religious people CAN be moral"

I'm not saying that they are moral, just that they can be

k

right so it's more like "black people can behave civilized, if kept on a short leash by everyone else"

Okay I'm sorry you're right notademon. My idea of morality hinges on the assumption that what my senses perceive is reality

rather than blacks (religious people) being civilized (moral)

There can't be any circular reasoning according to @Sock because logic isn't an inherent principle, it's just a human tool because truth doesn't exist outside of human perspectives

except truth is literally that which lies outside of human reasoning and logos means many more things other than just logical systems

Logic can exist without what I observe being real, it's just that anything I conclude using logic would turn out to be false

@Sock not true, deductive reasoning has been pretty effective