If it wasn't for Hitler someone competent like Hitler would have done it

Note that in the way I set up my hypothetical, Hitler dying would guarantee that the holocaust would stop. I'm not saying that's necessarily true - I'm using a thought experiment to elucidate some of the underlying theoretical moral principles.

Israel wouldnt exist without Hitler

checkmate utlilitarians

Technically you're still using a utilitarian framework if you're claiming the existence of Israel is a net benefit

> Note that in the way I set up my hypothetical, Hitler dying would guarantee that the holocaust would stop. I'm not saying that's necessarily true - I'm using a thought experiment to elucidate some of the underlying theoretical moral principles.
@Katelyn see we have to identify the root cause for the problem, Hitler lived a life on the belief which has been down to him from his elders that Jews are parasites

He acted on those false beliefs

Let's simplify this

So does terrorists

But by killing Hitler you would kill someone competent enough to execute and organize the killings, if not Hitler some other competent with those beliefs would have taken his position

Let's say that there's some evil dictator named Bitler who was responsible for the horrible torture and death of millions of people. We happened to have the information that if we killed Bitler, then this horrible tortue and killing would stop. Would it be wrong to want to kill Bitler, assuming killing Bitler were the only way to stop him?

Think of every CRPG youve played. Theres always a third choice that doesn’t involve disadvantaging either party.

Life isn't a videogame.

I don't think that there is a distinction between wishing a death and pulling the trigger yourself from a utilitarian perspective. More so Bentham than Mill.

> Let's say that there's some evil dictator named Bitler who was responsible for the horrible torture and death of millions of people. We happened to have the information that if we killed Bitler, then this horrible tortue and killing would stop. Would it be wrong to want to kill Bitler, assuming killing Bitler were the only way to stop him?
@Katelyn
People just don't kill other people for fun, and if they really do then they are a psychotic mental ailments

Well in that case we have medications

Sure, but say that we weren't able to intervene and get him those medications.

But in most cases people act on their fallacious beliefs

That's true too, but I'm not sure it's helping your argument.

Would you end one life in order to prevent 200,000 deaths?

Yes. I think it would evil not to.

All I'm saying is that killing is not the only option, cuz we have to observe what actually led them to do so. In Hitler's case it's the long bred hatred towards Jews handed down to him from his elders

if we already have the hypothetical power to kill said person, why not use our hypothetical to kill patient zero in the wet market?

that would save even more lives

From a utilitarian standpoint, that would be the right thing to do. I'm not a 1000% committed utilitarian, but in this case it does seem like it would be worth it.

I agree that B(H)itler did what he did because of his delusions, but those can very hard to talk people out of once they're committed to the path of large scale genocide.

or, we could use the hypothetical to go back in time to influence the CCP to ban ritualistic/traditional reasons for animal consumption.

then we would probably prevent SARS too

> I agree that B(H)itler did what he did because of his delusions, but those can very hard to talk people out of once they're committed to the path of large scale genocide.
@Katelyn
Here B(hitler ) has a commanility with lot many people around him. And he gained mass support cuz they all share something in common. ( Hatred towards Jews).
If it's not for the commanility Hitler himself wouldn't have accounted for that genocide.

banning usury wouldve also prevented WWII

He rose to power using those common grounds

If Hitler said something like Jews are good guys that's against the will of their people he share space with and he would have never achieved what he would have achieved

What he achieved***

That's why I'm saying he just organised that hatred which was there into killing machines.

> That's why I'm saying he just organised that hatred which was there into killing machines.
@Homeschool dropout which was already there into****

@Homeschool dropout Yes and no I think. Sure, B(hilter) was reflective of larger scale probelms, but they also can actively add fuel to the fire. To switch to a more straightforward example with Trump (not saying he's like Hitler), Trump is the biggest source of misinformation about covid (this has been shown empirically, I can provide the study if you want). This misinformation has caused people to take it less seriously. He also actively encouraged states to open too early (can provide empirical evidence for this too), and has started a moronic culture war about masks, which is the one major thing we know to be helping prevent the spread. If we had literally anyone else as president right now, say, Bush, Obama, Romney, etc., we would not have misinformation spreading this much. Sure, there's always going to be idiots and people wanting to make up conspiracies, but it would be significantly attenuated if it weren't the POTUS saying these things and actively undermining health experts in his own administration. So in this case, it seems like Trump is largely creating this situation which probably wouldn't have happened under the any other administration.

I'm not saying Trump and Hitler are anywhere near the same, but I'm much more familiar with the situation with Trump than I am with Hitler. And I think it's not unreasonable to extrapolate that orgnized hatred is a lot more dangerous than unorganized hatred, and removing that organizing figure could make it considerably harder for them to get a foothold and act on their hatred.

> @Homeschool dropout Yes and no I think. Sure, B(hilter) was reflective of larger scale probelms, but they also can actively add fuel to the fire. To switch to a more straightforward example with Trump (not saying he's like Hitler), Trump is the biggest source of misinformation about covid (this has been shown empirically, I can provide the study if you want). This misinformation has caused people to take it less seriously. He also actively encouraged states to open too early (can provide empirical evidence for this too), and has started a moronic culture war about masks, which is the one major thing we know to be helping prevent the spread. If we had literally anyone else as president right now, say, Bush, Obama, Romney, etc., we would not have misinformation spreading this much. Sure, there's always going to be idiots and people wanting to make up conspiracies, but it would be significantly attenuated if it weren't the POTUS saying these things and actively undermining health experts in his own administration. So in this case, it seems like Trump is largely creating this situation which probably wouldn't have happened under the any other administration.
>
> I'm not saying Trump and Hitler are anywhere near the same, but I'm much more familiar with the situation with Trump than I am with Hitler. And I think it's not unreasonable to extrapolate that orgnized hatred is a lot more dangerous than unorganized hatred, and removing that organizing figure could make it considerably harder for them to get a foothold and act on their hatred.
@Katelyn

Darling, I would never turn to a politician for health related queries.
That's why we have Doctors.
Politicians are experts in politics and doctors good at assessing our health.

We have to be cautious about where we are getting our information from

Right, but then why is Trump saying these things? You can say folks shouldn't trust him all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do, and they're getting really bad information that is causing them to make bad decisions. If Trump wasn't contradicting his own public health experts, those people probably wouldn't be believing falsehoods that Trump is making up.

And honestly, the way people are arguing that we shouldn't trust the president to make accurate statements about a health and safety during a pandemic just shows how pathetically low we've gotten.

These are not respectable standards to have for the president of the United States.