Look at your hand. What you see is constructed out of bits of data memory and hardwired patterns. You can feel your hand too which is born of the same sort of thing. Then wiggle your fingers a bit. That bit of intention isn't a representation at all.

You might call that consciousness which watched through your eyes and feels. You don't experience it. In fact the only time you are conscious of anything is when it resists your will. You don't feel anything with your hand unless something resists it. You don't see anything with your eyes until you can't see through something.

Which means that consciousness isn't fundamental since it obviously depends on something else to be conscious of anything.

they were afforded the opporunity by what they were actually skilled in, to appear as though they possessed the ability to play

i think this kind of sentiment is quite pervasive

the same thing can be said for metal

music in general

i went to see the edgewood symphony orchestra play at a unitarian church a few years back

once again

the same thing

people who appeared to be musicians, dawning the approriate formal attire of a bonafide symphony

with real, high quality instruments

but when they played, it was 100% evident why they were where they were

what you guys call order is merely abstract patterns we invent out of representions.

why have you made that materialist assumption

order is a syntheis of many many things

too many things

regarding your hand analogy

with some scrutiny it is an inescapeable conclusion

that some configuration of matter and energy itself cannot explain consciousness

it can explain how our brains work

but not why at all they work

what you talked about did not address the main issue of consciousness

is it appropriate to conclude that it works because it must

of course it works

but that doesn't explain consciousness is what I am saying

why not?

because we are unable to say what it is about it that actually makes "consciousness"

It's not materialist dude.

it is explicitly so

Matter is just a representation

There's no such thing as matter

I agree with that actually

matter is "existing"

existing in time

What does that have to do with the intelligibility of the world persisting in spite of fragmented perceptions?

the afterlife will have a "material" element as much as life does for instance

And about what you said.

I'm explicitly rejecting the mind/body dichotomy

thq qualia problem is a good illustration of why consciousness cannot be reduced to this

There is no mind body problem

At all

if all you are saying is consciousness cannot exist in time