Message from @fuck12moredeadcops
Discord ID: 630831107679584318
The vast, vast majority of people
fair enough
Er, they could even have land just not be enobled
Seriously listen to Mike Duncan’s Revolutions
I think the 3rd season is the French Revolution
He goes through all of this
Sure, I'm not referring to every non-landed non-church individual, and it's inaccurate to refer to the 3rd Estate of consisting of only non-landed individuals. 51 members of the Estates General before the beginning of the revolution were non-noble land owners
When the people started marching on bastile; that was the start of the french revolution
No that was super late
As in violence and such
The day of the tiles was the start of violence
But what does any of this have to do with a rejection of the idea that the French Revolution involved a revolution against feudalism
?
Because you’re just looking at the outcome
The primary goals achieved were the abolition of feudalism, a shrinking of church authority, and a dissolution of the monarchy
The idea that the non feudal entities rose up against the feudal entities, and that the 2nd estate defended the feudal privileges while he 3rd estate fought against them, is just not in any way supported by the historical record
I didn't say that
But no one had those goals at the onset
You absolutely did
On day 1 that was not the goal
You're French?
You called any 2nd estate person who fought against feudalism a class traitor
Like I said when I say bourgeoisie, I don't mean all members of the 3rd Estate, I mean somebody who possessed property, but was not a member of the aristocracy or church
Because he was an aristocrat
Ok, you are using that word wrong
And helped end feudalism
I'm not using the word wrong, i told you that's how the word is used in Marxism
And I'm a Marxist so I tend to use Marxist language.
Marx uses the word in the context of the French Revolution
To take it further and expand it and change its meaning is absolutely using it wrong
I believe you are using the word wrong.
He uses the word in dialectical materialism, which is his entire system of historical analysis
Not just in reference to the French Revolution, and certainly not to mean simply the 3rd Estate of the French Revolution.
Ok
If you think I'm incorrect I could quote Marx using the word in a context outside of the French Revolution
Go ahead then
My point was about the French Revolution
The facts of which do not in any way support the Marxist conclusion that it was he great bourgeoise Revolution
And is one of several big problems I have with Marx interpretations
"When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms, and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
In place of the old bourgeois society with its classes and class antagonisms we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all."