what no, a bureaucracy under socialism is made up by workers, and for the workers. if your referring to to the state under socialism, it's made up of people, and will be under the whip of the people. As I said, I don't know much about social liberties or libertarian socialism in general.

you said youre a democratic socialist though...

Democratic socialism, as I said, is achieving socialism through democratic means. There's a whole new catered to that, called libertarian socialism

and you abandon individual authority for a more centralized bureaucracy (even if its filled with "workers") you are still sacrificing personal autonomy

im just pointing out that the term is completely oxymoronic

lol, socialism is about making decisions democratically and decided on by every worker, that suppresses personal and individual autonomy?

your argument is about libertarian socialism, I don't know much about libertarian socialism

yes because you have representatives representing the wants of a collective

lol

there are no representatives lol

so wait youre a socialist now?

it's direct democracy at its best

yes, I am now, I used to be a rightist

and believed in capitalism

are you against markets completely?

no

markets are still needed

until central planning is more superior than market forces

lol democratic socialism advocates for state intervention to address social inequalities and state interventions aimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism

you remove power from the individual when you afford more power to a centralized bureaucracy lol

central planning has already been tried though

and it cannot compete with a price based market economy

why would there be state intevantion under socialism? there are no representatives under socialism, it's direct democracy at its purest.

@Egoy because computing was not advanced enough

prices are the most direct and efficient way resources can be allocated

state intervention exists by way of democratic socialism. you even said this is a vehicle to attain "true socialism"

there will always be state intervention under these conditions

Well under socialism, "market forces" would be allocated by supercomputers, read Paul cockshott for that, he described it when he published papers about the socialist calculation debate

@Egoy under socialism, the state is under the whip of the people lol, so "state intervention" would be a baseless argument tbh, when the workers own the means of production

with 21st century technology, central planning is actually feasable (to a extent)

Well, at least you understand the basic concepts of socialism

thats nice we have socialists that want to engage in debate. its sorta sad thought itll probably never work out

discord socialists are okay

YouTube socialists are edgy elementary schoolers who think that the hammer and sickle is kewl

many people falsely associate it as a alternative

i mean if literally only technology is the barrier to full on socialism why hasnt any other coutnry done it?

if its so clear?

nordic model still employs markets. china has large privately own sectors

Well, socialism can only be established when the working class is educated enough about it or when the alienation of said class is reached to an extent, capitalism is a transitionary ideology and a global system as well, socialism is a global system

the transition to socialism is inevitable, no matter what the timescale is.

it's any ideology, like feudalism and capitalism, capitalism would fall when the circumstances call for it.