Even now, you cant see everything

Right. Then you run immediately into the "Who Watches the Watchmen?" question, which hasn't changed in thousands of years. I think we have yet to show ARistotle or Plato wrong onthese things.

Wait what? WHo watches a god?

Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me

Yes, if you plot to assassinate a king, he could be none the wiser and you'd get away with it

But if God's watching? Fuck nah

Or also to uplift a population to act beyond what they were at the time

"Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me" -- yes this is a common belief. It's a faith-based, non-scientific belief, but it's a belief.

Concepts like hygine, decent behaviour, and more specifically, stuff like population controll and food prepping

What's your scientific explanation for religion Max?

Shit like monogamy

The evidence shows overwhelmingly that spiritual belief and religion are completely normal in humans, and perfectly rational if you engage the topic rationally (which not everyone does).

Well id argue its rational for someone to react to ideas they disagree with with hostility

Because we naturally want to explain the unexplained, nullify fear of death, and have objective morality and definite justice

@Vigil My scientific explanation? Well the science clearly shows we're wired for it. The history clearly shows non-religious and anti-religious societies quickly turn into complete chaos or into authoritarianism. This all points to me to human spirituality as a normal, evolved trait--which It hink is pretty clear from all the data we have.

Was the implication that humans who follow a relligion are irrational.

No

Well, it's like, a lot of the time religion is making an assumption

While evidence states that humans are predisposed to find a common belief to strive towards?

So the next question the Presuppositional Atheist has is how this would develop, since it's supposedly "irrational" and not "evidence based." But it's rational and evidence based, and normal in humans. Fighting it is anti-human and anti-human rights I think.

Which is rational

Afterall the best way to unite a populace is to create a movement for everyone to strive towards.

But now that I think about it. Remember that rat experiment?

Near the end of the experiment, rats started becoming loners?

So your argument is just that religion is good and natural, not that it is true?

Could that be similar to people who simply become reclusive and no longer wish to take part in society as a whole?

Why not a human-centric goal, though? Why do we have to unite over The Beardy Space Guy to get along? Why do we need the threat of punishment to do good things?

Make it impossible to achieve

And with enough faith youd have people working on it forever

A relligion dies when its goal has been achieved

I'm atheist and I'm still a good person with moral knowledge, yknow? I don't need God to make me moral. And anyone that is only moral for salvation is still as selfish as a sinner

I'll take selfish people acting good for their own gains over them acting badly.

And well, you still have to understand that humanity is still hardwired towards instinct

I'm not saying "ban all religion" obviously, belief is a very strong thing and more power to you if you're a rational accepting person with a deep and profound belief. But I work in terms of reality and I won't resign myself to being so ambitionless that my only reason for contributing and helping people is I don't want eternal agonising pain

I do not believe any atheist believes in morals or can come up with a coherent set of morals. They always go, always, to whether or not someone is "nice" or "kind." But these have no fixed menaing at all. Nice to who, when, and what circumstances? Sometimes you shouldn't be nice or kind or em pathetic, in fact. These are not what you build values on.

And it so happens someone who acts for the betterment of societty for selfish reasons, is better for the herd

It was one of many things that led me away from atheism--the moral question gets a surprising number of people.

Than someone who acts deviantly. For the sake of it.

So this is how you were when you were an atheist?

You're wrong, Max, morality doesn't depend on religion. If God didn't exist would you randomly start being a dick? Or do you have innate, in-built values that you act upon because you know they're right regardless of God?

Or even better, rationality and instinct.