Message from @GingaBomber
Discord ID: 488797173987934235
But if you cannot protect groups that individuals belong to, that they want to belong to, you aren't really protecting the individual. This is why I find both hyper-individualism and hyper-collectivism both horrifying. It's why I'm not a libertarian anymore, OR a socialist, though I get accused of both. 😛
Thats just being against extremism in general.
Or someone being a moderate. Whats there to argue?
A good collective protects the individual
That's the idea of constitutionalism and generally law- the collective enforce and act by rules that allow them to coexist as individuals
And generally benefit from one another through that.
Trade? Exchange of services? And a force to ensure it runs fair and square.
But of course, relligion has a part as well. In a time when regulation was hard as hell to enforce.
Even now, you cant see everything
Right. Then you run immediately into the "Who Watches the Watchmen?" question, which hasn't changed in thousands of years. I think we have yet to show ARistotle or Plato wrong onthese things.
Wait what? WHo watches a god?
Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me
Yes, if you plot to assassinate a king, he could be none the wiser and you'd get away with it
But if God's watching? Fuck nah
Or also to uplift a population to act beyond what they were at the time
"Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me" -- yes this is a common belief. It's a faith-based, non-scientific belief, but it's a belief.
Concepts like hygine, decent behaviour, and more specifically, stuff like population controll and food prepping
What's your scientific explanation for religion Max?
Shit like monogamy
The evidence shows overwhelmingly that spiritual belief and religion are completely normal in humans, and perfectly rational if you engage the topic rationally (which not everyone does).
Because we naturally want to explain the unexplained, nullify fear of death, and have objective morality and definite justice
@Vigil My scientific explanation? Well the science clearly shows we're wired for it. The history clearly shows non-religious and anti-religious societies quickly turn into complete chaos or into authoritarianism. This all points to me to human spirituality as a normal, evolved trait--which It hink is pretty clear from all the data we have.
Was the implication that humans who follow a relligion are irrational.
No
Well, it's like, a lot of the time religion is making an assumption
While evidence states that humans are predisposed to find a common belief to strive towards?
So the next question the Presuppositional Atheist has is how this would develop, since it's supposedly "irrational" and not "evidence based." But it's rational and evidence based, and normal in humans. Fighting it is anti-human and anti-human rights I think.
Which is rational
Afterall the best way to unite a populace is to create a movement for everyone to strive towards.
But now that I think about it. Remember that rat experiment?
Near the end of the experiment, rats started becoming loners?
So your argument is just that religion is good and natural, not that it is true?
Could that be similar to people who simply become reclusive and no longer wish to take part in society as a whole?
Why not a human-centric goal, though? Why do we have to unite over The Beardy Space Guy to get along? Why do we need the threat of punishment to do good things?
Make it impossible to achieve
And with enough faith youd have people working on it forever
A relligion dies when its goal has been achieved
I'm atheist and I'm still a good person with moral knowledge, yknow? I don't need God to make me moral. And anyone that is only moral for salvation is still as selfish as a sinner
I'll take selfish people acting good for their own gains over them acting badly.
And well, you still have to understand that humanity is still hardwired towards instinct